Positive Growth

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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:42 pm

Psiclone wrote:Although I methinks Tristan is a bit more powerful than you give credit to.
A shitton more powerful. I mean, your rambling about Caliga is great and all, Oxy, but Tristan can do just as much damage in his own way at his own pace and get just as many kills and be just as unkillable in return. Period.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Fledermaus » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:56 pm

Yeah but Trist really requires items to become as godly as Cali. Perhaps nerf Cali's images so they only do full damage if the target doesn't move out of range?

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:38 am

It used to be that way and then Caliga had like, no chasing power whatsoever.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Fledermaus » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 am

Didn't they just used to miss if target wasn't still? I mean they do less damage, possibly based on distance away from target.

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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:44 am

The problem is that Caliga has no way of keeping them in range, so to do something like that is totally counterproductive.
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Oxygen
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:It used to be that way and then Caliga had like, no chasing power whatsoever.
Things have changed. You gave him 30 (+100) more movespeed than anyone who's not muted, rose or kassar. In addition, tombreaver now works against targets running away (I'm pretty sure it used not to) so you don't even have to come out and try to place yourself at a smart angle to get the full benefits from your hits.

Seriously, make the voidwalk disable your attack again, I loved having to furiously smash it on and off, position myself, and have to click the target again just to get 2-3 good hits off (I feel sorry for people who don't use hotkeys). That somewhat took skill to pull off, but in its current state, no, it does not remotely. I have yet to find someone disagree about caliga being entirely out of control. And you can't give me the "hes a good hero killer, but sucks against wave" speech because he does 500 aoe damage, and can rip a dragon a new one in <10 seconds with an average build setup. And ~1400 health and -66% phy. taken to tank the waves.

It takes alot to change the way I actually do things because I can generally pull off something kinky and outside the box. But caliga currently elevates bullshit to an art, and so much that I avoid playing order as much as I possibly can, ie, unless I'm forced to. And then again, I even make my hero choice according to if theres caliga in game or not. Doe is the first map in which I actually REACT to something being stupid instead of, I repeat myself, trying to do something. Hell, a pubbie with half a brain playing caliga could just spam haunt and be succesful. This is horrible.

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by 2-P » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:38 am

I had a game yesterday in which our Caliga left. Arro was pushing our base, I took Caliga, casted ghosts and seal on arro, activated voidwalk and his ult and right clicked on arro. Caliga ran through the entire creep wave (which was rather large) and killed arro, plus Caliga survived the whole thing. That was rather scary lol.

I agree with Oxy about the no-attack thing during voidwalk. What I hated about the old voidwalk was the complete physical damage immunity. Not sure if disabling his attack and "only" reducing physical damage would be good enough, but imo it's worth a try, since Calli is rather insane right now as Oxy already explained.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:30 am

Oxygen wrote:And you can't give me the "hes a good hero killer, but sucks against wave" speech because he does 500 aoe damage, and can rip a dragon a new one in <10 seconds with an average build setup. And ~1400 health and -66% phy. taken to tank the waves.
I am not an idiot and I would greatly appreciate you not treating me like one. That's the fastest way to guarantee that I won't listen to a damned thing you say, even if what you say has any merit or not.
2-P wrote:I agree with Oxy about the no-attack thing during voidwalk.
Hotkey-mashing is neither skill-based nor rewarding as a dynamic, and as a matter of fact is the exact opposite of intuitive. It may be worth it to reduce his attack damage by 66% or something during Voidwalk, but I am not going back to a "no-attack" thing like before; that was retarded.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Final_Pantheon » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:06 am

I'm pretty sure that after reading all the posts in this thread, there's no mention of the fact that upgrade kits only sell back for 1 faction. Seeing as items that have been upgraded sell back for 2 faction, I don't think this is intentional.
It's only a minor detail, but it bugs me every time I see it.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:04 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:I am not an idiot and I would greatly appreciate you not treating me like one. That's the fastest way to guarantee that I won't listen to a damned thing you say, even if what you say has any merit or not.
I'm not treating you like an idiot, I'm just playing it safe by ensuring that everyone fully and perfectly understands the situation. I felt like an argument "Caliga rapes heroes and waves" was much weaker than a "Caliga rapes heroes and waves because of X Y Z". Sure, that may be common knowledge to you, but there's other people around that may not be convinced or knowledgeful about the game.

Hotkey mashing was a really bad term, I'm sorry if that confused you about what I was trying to say. The old voidwalk/tombreaver took timing and knowledge to use because you had to actually predict where your target was going to be in order to quickly drop out of it, land a few good hits, and hop back right away, then repeating the process. Clearly, you aren't mashing anything, but rather, hitting them at various (precise, if you did it well) and repeated occasions, and that happened to be where I really pulled my weight when playing caliga. But now that this is gone, I feel like there's much less to his gameplay.

Reducing his attack speed while voidwalking is actually a really good idea because you will pretty much have to use the strategy stated above in order to get the maximum out of your character, and all without the downsides of removing its ability to attack. I LIKE THAT IDEA, DOES ANYBODY ELSE?

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:15 pm

Oxygen wrote:I'm not treating you like an idiot, I'm just playing it safe by ensuring that everyone fully and perfectly understands the situation. I felt like an argument "Caliga rapes heroes and waves" was much weaker than a "Caliga rapes heroes and waves because of X Y Z". Sure, that may be common knowledge to you, but there's other people around that may not be convinced or knowledgeful about the game.
One day you may yet learn that how something is said is oftentimes more important than what is said.
Oxygen wrote:Reducing his attack speed while voidwalking is actually a really good idea because you will pretty much have to use the strategy stated above in order to get the maximum out of your character, and all without the downsides of removing its ability to attack. I LIKE THAT IDEA, DOES ANYBODY ELSE?
Attack speed's an idea, but I prefer the following solution. My solution is as follows, and it actually makes the spell even cooler than before:
  • Caliga loses 12/14/16/18/20 Strength in Voidwalk
  • Caliga's attack type changes from physical to magickal in Voidwalk
  • Caliga's mana is only drained when not max
In this way, he is both less durable and hits lighter while in Voidwalk. Both of the first two nerfs make sense within the concept of the spell and serve to balance out the fact that it's adding a raw 20/40/60/80/100 MS to him. The lost strength also severely drops the damage inflicted with Tombreaver active (Since it is augmented many times over). The last change is really just to allow him the capacity to "pick" which form to initialize a battle in, giving the player more options.

The magickal damage and physical damage split lets you further play to your talent with the skill by letting you decide when certain items will trigger or not. It may be very valid to use magickal for HoR and then swap to physical to activate Firebrand, for instance. You may even choose to use UoSV to AOE mute and mana burn on your magickal damage (Adds 15% damage vs. heroes with mana, doubly effective vs. Sozen).
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Oxygen
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:30 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:[*]Caliga loses 12/14/16/18/20 Strength in Voidwalk
[*]Caliga's attack type changes from physical to magickal in Voidwalk
[*]Caliga's mana is only drained when not max[/list]
In this way, he is both less durable and hits lighter while in Voidwalk. Both of the first two nerfs make sense within the concept of the spell and serve to balance out the fact that it's adding a raw 20/40/60/80/100 MS to him. The last change is really just to allow him the capacity to "pick" which form to initialize a battle in, giving the player more options. The magickal damage and physical damage split lets you further play to your talent with the skill by letting you decide when certain items will trigger or not. It may be very valid to use magickal for HoR and then swap to physical to activate Firebrand, for instance. You may even choose to use UoSV to AOE mute and mana burn on your magickal damage (Adds 15% damage vs. heroes with mana, doubly effective vs. Sozen).
I actually did get the idea of changing his attack type to magical, but did not feel like I had any proper argument to do so. Items didn't come to mind because you wouldn't want to attack with -66% ias anyway.

If voidwalk reduces your damage in any way, I feel like it'll remain the catching up tool that it was back when he couldn't attack with it. The ability to deal magic just doesn't seem to overweight what appears to be a pretty big damage reduction (we're talking -20 out of ~75ish top damage, right?) for a hero based on hitting hard. Players may as well just flavor normal form and using voidwalk to move around, and especially with the health reduction... but then again, it seems that I have arguments against myself and stuff... too many variables. The cold truth is that perhaps the problem just doesn't lie in voidwalk or at least, only partially does.

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:36 pm

Oxygen wrote:(we're talking -20 out of ~75ish top damage, right?)
Yes, in conjunction with -400 max life.
Oxygen wrote:The cold truth is that perhaps the problem just doesn't lie in voidwalk or at least, only partially does.
OSeal is fine, and Tombreaver is amazing, and rightfully so. (It's the last thing I'd want to nerf, honest) Target unit 500 AOE damage is rather rough, though, and if anything else needs it, it's that. Personally, though, I feel that despite it listing as 500, it's actually 350-400 against normal foes when cast at range (Takes 2-3s to get to them). Perhaps having it scale up to 40 damage per second at max level would be more fair without hurting the ability's functionality and value too much.
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:47 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote: OSeal is fine, and Tombreaver is amazing, and rightfully so. (It's the last thing I'd want to nerf, honest) Target unit 500 AOE damage is rather rough, though, and if anything else needs it, it's that. Personally, though, I feel that despite it listing as 500, it's actually 350-400 against normal foes when cast at range (Takes 2-3s to get to them). Perhaps having it scale up to 40 damage per second at max level would be more fair without hurting the ability's functionality and value too much.
Can't we figure out a slighty functionality change for haunt? ie, they could chase targets with conditions on them faster... People complain alot about the spell (me first) and it feels so alien to his skillset (chasing, hitting hard, ruin and ... ranged dot? what? and hell, it's even stronger than many caster's main nuke) but uh, no, I'm really out of ideas. Reducing its damage would feel like a shortlived bobo patch since it's STILL an awesome click-and-benefit

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Soul_Reaver » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:55 pm

What if it started with X ghosts, each dealing Y area damage.
And if target unit of the ghosts began to suffer a condition another ghost would be spawned to a maximum of 2x.

It would make its overall performance a bit worse, but offer some nice combos in return.

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