And The Winner Is...

Let's play a game. If you win, you might just get some representation in DoE!

Who do you want to win?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:19 pm

Poppy's Canus Unum
26
46%
Daryll's Thorrum Cainus
7
13%
Storm's Travayl
23
41%
 
Total votes: 56

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Kings_Mercy
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Kings_Mercy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:06 pm

That would be like making a peon hero that could out tank geno....retarded.
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The Colonel
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by The Colonel » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:50 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:you will not see an effectively designed chaser hero with the pit lord model

I beg to differ, but that must wait until Friday. Everything else you said is very true, and in a AoS field I agree with you. But in a non-AoS playing field it is possible, with creativity, to make a pit lord hero a chaser.
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Hell_Tempest
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Hell_Tempest » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:54 pm

The Colonel wrote:
Rising_Dusk wrote:you will not see an effectively designed chaser hero with the pit lord model

I beg to differ, but that must wait until Friday. Everything else you said is very true, and in a AoS field I agree with you. But in a non-AoS playing field it is possible, with creativity, to make a pit lord hero a chaser.


Yeah, I see what you mean. In Battle Royale the Pit Lard was an effective chaser.
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vesuvan
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by vesuvan » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:21 pm

The spells and attack types you are permitted to use within bounds of reason rest on the animations therein found on the models. I mean really, what if you watched the movie Harry Potter, but instead of Harry being a wizard he was a pro wrestler, but looked exactly like he does now. Would you claim "Oh, the director is free to do whatever he pleases because it's his movie, even if the visuals make no sense with the design"? No, you'd whine and complain about a 60 pound preteen wrestling down griffons and ogres.

Harry potter as a wrestler would fall under the same category of a firelord casting blizzard, i believe I was quite clear on that. My point is that there is no reason harry potter has to be a wizard. Even considering his garb and stature, he could easily be a chemist, archer, tamer of wild animals, even an amateur monk capable of applying physical force much greater than would be apparent.

Sure, harry potter is limited by his "animations", but in that case, you just have to be creative and work with what you have. Case in point is a flying spinning warden that uses the fan of knives animation, or kassar diving into the sand. Nobody is suggesting a mountain king that has a ranged attack using the meatwagon model as the projectile.

These conventions as you call them are founded in sense and logic and are therefore unfallable by opinion.

The conventions I am talking about are not using unit animations effectively, I already acknowledged these as common sense. The conventions I defy are ridiculous things like expecting trayal to be some kind of heavy attacker.
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by The Colonel » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:56 pm

Hell_Tempest wrote:yeah, I see what you mean. In Battle Royale the Pit Lard was an effective chaser.

He wasn't a chaser as much as a disabler, he would force the enemies to slow down so he could rip their faces of. The one I'm referring to will quickly chase you down. But not in the way you'd think.

I agree with Ves, as long as the stuff for the hero makes sense, no polar bears shooting frog ladders, there's no reason it has to fall into the same stereotypical role.
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:32 pm

But in a non-AoS playing field it is possible, with creativity, to make a pit lord hero a chaser.

I saw your pit lord in your map the last time I played. Giving him a teleport was one of the silliest looking things I've ever seen in my life. But hey, you can do what you want. Also, don't confuse giving a hero a distance teleport skill with making them an effective chaser, in gameplay terms, long-range teleports are better used for surprise assaults -- Not chasing a hero who knows where you are. Only short range ones are good for chasing, and I sure hope to God you didn't give your Pit Lord blink.

EDIT: I also want to emphasize that being good in gameplay terms at something doesn't make it good hero design. Even if you made your pit lord the best chaser known to man, I would argue against it on a very fundamental design level.
Case in point is a flying spinning warden that uses the fan of knives animation

Janise did that in her beta release version in AotZ 0.03 or something. It was wretched, trust me, I'd never do it again in a million years.
Case in point is a flying spinning warden that uses the fan of knives animation, or kassar diving into the sand

Not all animations on most hero models allow for such creativity. What can you do with the Pit Lord's animation where he slams his spear into the ground? I mean really, most things just don't permit creativity insofar as we'd like. You cannot simply say "BE MORE CREATIVE" and yell at people about using attack skills on a blademaster or whatever.
Even considering his garb and stature, he could easily be a chemist, archer, tamer of wild animals, even an amateur monk capable of applying physical force much greater than would be apparent.

Now take a blademaster model in the same scenario. With a whirlwind animation, a really long sword, and virtually only attack animations otherwise list for me all of the things you think you can do with the model that aren't hero killer/chaser/melee rapist.
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The Colonel
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by The Colonel » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:59 pm

I don't remember giving the game to you, who'd you play it with? No, he doesn't have blink, that would make no sense gameplay wise or logically. I suppose the term "chaser," is rather ambiguous. When I hear chaser I think "Is able to follow a running hero." I don't see how Agonar spending 3 seconds to open a rift and then hopping through the other end looks silly.

Janise flew? That's scary.

You are definitely correct about the blade master thing, but isn't it possible to create your own animations? Or does that take up to much space?
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Rising_Dusk
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:10 pm

I don't remember giving the game to you, who'd you play it with?

Noble, I believe it was.
You are definitely correct about the blade master thing, but isn't it possible to create your own animations?

Of course it is... At the cost of reimporting a 200kb or so model. If you want to minimize filesize of your map while maximizing content, the choice between a 200kb model + 30kb skin or just a 30kb skin is hardly a tough one to make.
When I hear chaser I think "Is able to follow a running hero." I don't see how Agonar spending 3 seconds to open a rift and then hopping through the other end looks silly.

I seem to recall him summoning a tiny demon thing that flew to a position and then teleported the pit lord to the thingies location. It might have been a nether dragon if I recall. It looked silly when he appeared out of thin air from a nether dragon, though it may have changed since then. (Also, FYI, spending 3 seconds to open a portal to teleport after a hero makes it more an escape/enter battle skill rather than a hero chaser)
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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The Colonel
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by The Colonel » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:22 pm

It really takes that much to give a model new animations? It makes no sense that blizzard would make such a stupid system that you have to waste an entire models worth of room just to add to animations. You'd really think they'd have found a better way. Or at least they could provide more models as opposed to only those used in melee so that the map makers have more to work with!

Ah yes, the version noble got was from Cold, and it was while Agonar was still under heavy contruction. BTW, it was a miniature destroyer, which I agree, looked silly, especially because at that time he just appeared, no visual effects. It was just, "*Pop*! Look! A pit lord!"
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Cold Phoenix
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Cold Phoenix » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:43 pm

Off topic people! : o

It is a sad day when Cold must remind you to get on topic. . . ~_~

Voted for for Poppy's because invisi-own hax dwarves don't appeal and Travavylylvalylvlayl felt like he was missing something.
Your move.

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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by The Colonel » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:49 pm

Your vote went to travy, you know that, right?
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by polishgangsta » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:02 pm

i really think that a role doesn't have to fit a model, just the skills. A dwarf caster is not a completely crazy idea, but the designer would have to get around the fact that the dwarf carries a hammer and axe, not a staff or wand. Sure it could cast spells still, but it might look a bit strange unless the designer put some effort into shaping the skills to fit the look. Form fitting function, and all that.

on topic: my vote goes to poppy: giant death rays greatly interest me.
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Rising_Dusk
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:17 pm

i really think that a role doesn't have to fit a model, just the skills.

Quite the contrary, actually -- A model fits a role whether you want it to or not.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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Cold Phoenix
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Cold Phoenix » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:23 pm

I voted a few days ago, I just posted about it now.
Your move.

vesuvan
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Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by vesuvan » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:50 pm

It's all about "flavor"(design term created by wizards of the coast. Yes, I deserve to be stabbed for introducing more jargon) as to what you can allow a hero or spell to do.

An example of this are the conditions in DoE. All kinds of things can cause burning, even if only in an abstract sense, literal fire is not required. Even blind can be caused with sand, flares, or could even be an abstraction of baffling or otherwise impairing the senses of the target.

So when a pit lord cast's blink, it might really seem strange and unsettling, but if you really want to have a pit lord with a teleporting mechanic, there might be a way to make it seem flavorful and fitting. Maybe the pit lord could summon some demonic voids at two points, and use them as a gateway?

Not all animations on most hero models allow for such creativity. What can you do with the Pit Lord's animation where he slams his spear into the ground? I mean really, most things just don't permit creativity insofar as we'd like. You cannot simply say "BE MORE CREATIVE" and yell at people about using attack skills on a blademaster or whatever.

You're turning my negative claim into a positive claim strawman. Nobody will persecute you for making a blademaster rely on attacking type spells.

At the same time, if somebody happened to find a way to use the blademaster animations in a different way, they should be judged based on how good it looks, not on if it happens to be a novel application. Not all animations have much potential in this regard, but some do.
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