And The Winner Is...

Let's play a game. If you win, you might just get some representation in DoE!
Locked

Who do you want to win?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:19 pm

Poppy's Canus Unum
26
46%
Daryll's Thorrum Cainus
7
13%
Storm's Travayl
23
41%
 
Total votes: 56

User avatar
TheIrishPatriot
Grandmaster of Grammar
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:01 am
Location: Not Sweden
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:57 pm

Soul_Reaver wrote:And instant death on the caster because of the -6 armor.

You obviously haven't played Vesu as Rose.
Image
Read my prose please :).
An tírghrá Éireannach

User avatar
Soul_Reaver
Revenent of the Replies
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Soul_Reaver » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:01 am

I get 2 Booties of Haste, an Armor Item, 2 Rings of Regeneration and a Ring of Vim on Rose. I can still keep up to anyone, even Exuro, and I'm not raped on sight. Win.

User avatar
Loki
Gypsy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:16 am
Location: In a sea of paper cranes and a sky of paper planes.
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Loki » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:07 am

Ves uses like all booties. -_-; He succeeds by hit-run tactics.
Let's do what comes naturally
ImageImageImageImage
I'll be waiting in Haven.

Rectifier
Revenent of the Replies
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:47 pm

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rectifier » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:20 am

I prefer getting potions and health regen, then work for summoning mobs and uber items after killing several heroes. I mean, if items aren't the focus of this game, then only the uber items should be worth getting as a signficant advantage over the other heroes.

But in terms of the other two hero ideas presented, here's my current opinion.

The agil hero seems kind of like self-healing stealth assasin without the backstab damage. For all intents and purposes, I consider this hero to be garbage, because agility heroes rely on damage instead of life or mana as an escape mechanism, to increases their chances of survival, and to finish people off. How can an agility hero be effective if only one of their abilities increases their damage output? As an example for how important damage is for agility heroes, simply look at Dota (yes I know Dota :roll: ). Every single agility hero in Dota has multiple abilities which increase damage output, this is the reason why playing those heroes is a high-loss to high-gain play style. Changing the Russian Roulette playing style makes the agility hero less interesting, because let's face it, people like risking their lives as Sozen and Rose to pull off a quick kill.

The str hero is like every dwarf hero, they can rage, deal lots of damage, and usually requires major disabling to kill; but the invisibility escape mechanism just seems overpowered in theory, since the enemy already cast all their spells trying to kill and disable him before he can kill them, however, he simply runs away invisible or walks up close invisible and then owns them after they try to disable him. Disables are meant to be escape mechanisms for several heroes, and I don't see a reason to make those disables completely useless against one person. It is possible to balance the hero, if it wasn't for the many possible strategies for Canum I would vote for this hero.

User avatar
Rising_Dusk
Chosen of the Intargweeb
Posts: 4029
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:34 am

How can an agility hero be effective if only one of their abilities increases their damage output?

How does Atrius work at all then? And please, don't call Sandstorm a damaging ability, 25 DPS in a shallow area doesn't really achieve anything.
For all intents and purposes, I consider this hero to be garbage, because agility heroes rely on damage instead of life or mana as an escape mechanism

Maybe you misunderstand, then. The healing is a mechanism to make the ability useful (Though not optimal) at level one and even in cases where you might not be at liberty to refresh other cooldowns. Think about it for a minute before calling it garbage, as it most certainly is not.
simply look at Dota (yes I know Dota :roll: )

DotA also has zero chance of making heroes like Glasse or Victor work -- But oh look at that, they DO work in DoE. It's crazy, the things that apply to DotA do not inevitably apply to DoE!
The str hero is like every dwarf hero

I can't think of any with similar mechanics.
but the invisibility escape mechanism just seems overpowered in theory

Escape mechanism? You've played DoE, right?
Disables are meant to be escape mechanisms for several heroes, and I don't see a reason to make those disables completely useless against one person. It is possible to balance the hero, if it wasn't for the many possible strategies for Canum I would vote for this hero.

Disables are not just for escapes, as a matter of fact they find niches in a wide variety of different builds and hero archetypes. Either you're not very good at expressing what you really mean or you really don't understand what you want to say, but quite frankly I would argue you've no idea what you're talking about.

You need to stop thinking about DotA because DoE is not DotA. Maybe you should play DoE more if you want to comment on how best to improve it -- Your suggestions falter because the logic behind them applies to a map where damage output is virtually all that matters. I guarantee you that if I made any of these three heroes, if you can appreciate DoE's design at all you would love playing as any of them. How can you explain this? That hero you call garbage would quite possibly be the most incredible thing to play as ever. The atmosphere presented in DoE changes all of the "standards" you've claimed the map needs to follow into things you've not even touched upon in your opinions.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

User avatar
Soul_Reaver
Revenent of the Replies
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Soul_Reaver » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:54 pm

Rectifier wrote:I prefer getting potions and health regen, then work for summoning mobs and uber items after killing several heroes.


I, too, never get any items from the Panda Shops, but that is for a reason. I also like to get constant regeneration or boots from the 200 tier basic items, instead of spending on Potions. Using your gold is very important in DoE, but not in the way of buying überimbalanced item recipes, and that is Mob Summoning. With 600 gold in my pocket, I can easily wreak havoc on an undefended lane, using 2 Javelin Throwers and 2 Priests, considering the fact that they are sent two times, and that contributes to the game way more than if I would buy an item that gives me 7 damage, 7% attack and movement speed, 7 strength and 7% chance to reduce movement speed for 2050 gold.

The later example makes the game an hour long, as everyone has to farm for 40-45 minutes to even nearly be able to do something. Have you seen a DoE game last for 40-45 minutes? Sure, you have. That was because there were 4 or more players, and everyone spawned mobs. This way, an individual hero's work becomes hero killing instead of farming around, as your creeps can do all the pushing for you, if you take care of enemy heroes.

An assassin can indeed should circle around damage dealing, but don't you think that if you have 200+ extra heal to call upon, than you will of course, use it out, and be able to deal damage instead of having to retreat?

Rectifier
Revenent of the Replies
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:47 pm

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rectifier » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:34 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:How does Atrius work at all then? And please, don't call Sandstorm a damaging ability, 25 DPS in a shallow area doesn't really achieve anything.


25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it, it helps his damage greatly if the other hero is dumb enough to stick around, healing does not add to dps; the healing skill isn't bad in itself, but I can't see myself dealing alot of damage without getting owned by a disable combined with a nuke or dying from an experienced player before going invis again.

Maybe you misunderstand, then. The healing is a mechanism to make the ability useful (Though not optimal) at level one and even in cases where you might not be at liberty to refresh other cooldowns. Think about it for a minute before calling it garbage, as it most certainly is not.


I'm not saying it's a bad skill in itself, I'm saying that he has no synergy for efficient damage dealing by pointing that skill out. All he can do is hit and run, heal and hope he doesn't run out of mana in the process and be forced to go back to base prematurely after using his initial mana pots; because I find that one of the easiest ways to win in DoE is to stay out and gain as much exp as possible without dying before going back to heal.

DotA also has zero chance of making heroes like Glasse or Victor work -- But oh look at that, they DO work in DoE. It's crazy, the things that apply to DotA do not inevitably apply to DoE!


I was using Dota as an example, but the same basic principles that began years ago in the Starcraft map Aeon of Strife still apply here: such as being able to deal damage and being able to run away, Dota and DoE are no exceptions.

I can't think of any with similar mechanics.


Every melee dwarf hero I've seen is all about having some sort of rage ability, some sort of high damage ability involving a high risk, and a passive damage ability. The str hero listed here is just a new wrapper on the same candy bar, no offense meant to your hero making skills, but I'm biased and don't like dwarf barbarians because 90% of dwarfs in D&D either going tank fighter or barbarian, the premise just doesn't seem original to me.

Escape mechanism? You've played DoE, right?


Enough to know that being able to dodge or escape from a bad situation is very important because some characters have escape mechanisms that require fairly precise timing. Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.

Disables are not just for escapes, as a matter of fact they find niches in a wide variety of different builds and hero archetypes. Either you're not very good at expressing what you really mean or you really don't understand what you want to say, but quite frankly I would argue you've no idea what you're talking about.


There are two types of disables in warcraft 3, disables either prevent damage or cause more damage. Escape mechanism is just a term used to describe the disables or self-buffs that can be used to prevent any or most damage from hitting your hero. The other disables are simply called disables, and are meant to force the enemy into taking more damage where they would otherwise escape with little or no damage.

You need to stop thinking about DotA because DoE is not DotA. Maybe you should play DoE more if you want to comment on how best to improve it -- Your suggestions falter because the logic behind them applies to a map where damage output is virtually all that matters. I guarantee you that if I made any of these three heroes, if you can appreciate DoE's design at all you would love playing as any of them. How can you explain this? That hero you call garbage would quite possibly be the most incredible thing to play as ever. The atmosphere presented in DoE changes all of the "standards" you've claimed the map needs to follow into things you've not even touched upon in your opinions.


I would enjoy playing all the heroes, but I can only choose one, and therefore, based upon my initial judgements, compared to the int hero I have decided that the other two are harder to balance and will be less interesting once implemented. I use the term "garbage" to garner interest from others to my "narrow-minded" views, because I find that saying things without compromise starts deep and interesting discussion.

User avatar
Rising_Dusk
Chosen of the Intargweeb
Posts: 4029
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:07 am

25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it

Sure, but you're saying that sandstorm's shallow AOE and terrible viability as a damaging skill with virtually no reliability somehow changes the entire dynamic of the hero. The thing is that it doesn't whatsoever. I could remove the damage on Sandstorm and it's major use would not be thwarted, Atrius would continue on as a huge power character.

I'm not saying it's a bad skill in itself, I'm saying that he has no synergy for efficient damage dealing by pointing that skill out. All he can do is hit and run, heal and hope he doesn't run out of mana in the process and be forced to go back to base prematurely after using his initial mana pots; because I find that one of the easiest ways to win in DoE is to stay out and gain as much exp as possible without dying before going back to heal.

I would scale his mana costs on his abilities so that he runs out of mana anyways, it has no bearing on his mana consumption whether or not he has a healing skill or not. Also, having a healing skill nullifies the need to bring healing potions, meaning you can bring more mana potions. If you want to include items in your arguments, you may as well consider that he's got more resource control as a result of having a self-heal -- That synergizes with everything in a hero fundamentally.

I was using Dota as an example, but the same basic principles that began years ago in the Starcraft map Aeon of Strife still apply here: such as being able to deal damage and being able to run away, Dota and DoE are no exceptions.

Of course they do, but they do not apply alone. That's where you are mistaken.

Every melee dwarf hero I've seen is all about having some sort of rage ability, some sort of high damage ability involving a high risk, and a passive damage ability. The str hero listed here is just a new wrapper on the same candy bar, no offense meant to your hero making skills, but I'm biased and don't like dwarf barbarians because 90% of dwarfs in D&D either going tank fighter or barbarian, the premise just doesn't seem original to me.

And every demon hunter hero is a hero chaser, every warden hero is a hero killer, every paladin hero heals. These hero models make the most sense for specific roles whether or not it's been done a million times in the past or not. You will not see an effectively designed crypt lord hero that focuses on healing and reviving allies, you will not see an effectively designed chaser hero with the pit lord model, you will not see an effectively designed melee fighter using the blood mage model. Does this somehow make it a sin to having a mountain king hero with a crazed and psychotic feel to him? If by whatever means you answer yes to that, please don't even respond to this -- Your opinion will be beyond reason.

Enough to know that being able to dodge or escape from a bad situation is very important because some characters have escape mechanisms that require fairly precise timing. Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.

Of course it's important, but that's not a problem. Just because a hero is strength doesn't mean he has 2000 life, and just because he's a dwarf doesn't mean his base movement would be super high either. You can't judge these things, settle in knowing that I am capable of balancing DoE effectively, you don't have to worry about that. :p

There are two types of disables in warcraft 3, disables either prevent damage or cause more damage. Escape mechanism is just a term used to describe the disables or self-buffs that can be used to prevent any or most damage from hitting your hero. The other disables are simply called disables, and are meant to force the enemy into taking more damage where they would otherwise escape with little or no damage.

I respect your desire to quantify every aspect of WC3 mechanisms, but it does little in the ways of helping me develop anything at all. I may not be familiar with your terminology, but I know well enough all of the ways something such as a disable can be used.

I would enjoy playing all the heroes, but I can only choose one, and therefore, based upon my initial judgements, compared to the int hero I have decided that the other two are harder to balance and will be less interesting once implemented. I use the term "garbage" to garner interest from others to my "narrow-minded" views, because I find that saying things without compromise starts deep and interesting discussion.

It also incenses people's tempers and gives a very negative impression of yourself. There are plenty of other, more socially acceptable ways to build interest in a topic. One would just be to post something long and well-spoken about something you feel strongly on. We respond positively to such things, but definitely not to calling something garbage.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

User avatar
Merlin
Wielder of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:39 am

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Merlin » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:16 am

I'd contest the claim that SS's damage is worthless, mainly because you're forgetting that the damage from multiple Sandstorms stacks. So while one SS will deal 105 damage to a tower in 9 seconds, two will have dealt 210 damage in 12, and 315 in 15, etc. Factor in that it's easy and safe enough to maintain from a distance, and that enemy workers are unable to repair as long as you're able to cast, and you've got yourself a sieging spell.

User avatar
Rising_Dusk
Chosen of the Intargweeb
Posts: 4029
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:35 am

It deals roughly 6 or so damage per second to structures due to it being physical damage in nature, though. And yes, you're right about the workers, they're particularly weak in general, but I would claim that my point remains.
I wrote:Sure, but you're saying that sandstorm's shallow AOE and terrible viability as a damaging skill with virtually no reliability somehow changes the entire dynamic of the hero. The thing is that it doesn't whatsoever. I could remove the damage on Sandstorm and it's major use would not be thwarted, Atrius would continue on as a huge power character.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

User avatar
Merlin
Wielder of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:39 am

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Merlin » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:16 pm

On an Expo, which has 10 fortified armor, yes. I just tried it on a regular tower, which has 4 fortified armor, and it dealt exactly 105 damage in 9 seconds at level 5.

That's 11.5~ dps if you've got one Sandstorm going, or up to 21 dps if you're casting Sandstorm every 3 seconds. Not exactly devastating, but you can destroy a regular tower with 8 casts, taking 30 seconds...makes you realize how many better choices there are for sieging, really.

vesuvan
Revenent of the Replies
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by vesuvan » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:18 pm

*lost patience*

For all intents and purposes, I consider this hero to be garbage, because agility heroes rely on damage instead of life or mana as an escape mechanism, to increases their chances of survival, and to finish people off.

Who made the decision regarding what an agility hero is? Blizzard? Dota? You? The mapping fairy that visits people in their sleep to deliver mapping instructions scribed on stone tablets and leaves them in their stockings?

The designer decides whether a hero is played as a glass cannon, heavy support, tank, or anything else whatever their primary attribute is.

25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it, it helps his damage greatly if the other hero is dumb enough to stick around, healing does not add to dps;


Ok, lets ask dusk to shoehorn 5 dps on the hero somewhere so you will be happy, because it appears you aren't even concerned with if the DPS effects how a hero plays, but rather the aesthetics. DPS does not define atrius, nor should it define storms hero, and if the mapping fairy has a problem with that, then he can make his own map.

the healing skill isn't bad in itself, but I can't see myself dealing alot of damage without getting owned by a disable combined with a nuke or dying from an experienced player before going invis again.

So you are saying the mapping fairy would do poorly playing as the hero because he doesn't know how to play heroes that don't completely follow his rules? I agree.

Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.

More unsupported "mapping fairy" claims. A str hero can have anything and be practical to balance that a hero of any other attribute could have.

you will not see an effectively designed crypt lord hero that focuses on healing and reviving allies

Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?

I would actually use sozen as an example of defying convention. His model looks best with a melee attack, so odds are, he is going to end up getting damage potential as a trade off for his range, I notice no demon hunter model mysterious influence. There is a big difference between not using the firelord to summon water elementals and blindly following the convention of how a hero model should be used. The first is just common sense, while the second is not absolutely necessary.
͎̟͕͎̯̺͎̟͕͎̯̺ĩ̵̢͉̺̹͖͔̻̣̟̙ͦ̋̍ͤ̈́ͫ̓͐͐̅͊͒ͪͬͧͅn̢̮͈̪̤̳̏ͥ̐̍̌͊͜͟͠
̵̢͉̺̹͖͔̻̣̟̙ͦ̋̍ͤ̈́ͫ̓͐͐̅͊͒ͪͬͧͅn̢̮͈̪̤̳̏ͥ̐̍̌͊͜͟͠

User avatar
Loki
Gypsy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:16 am
Location: In a sea of paper cranes and a sky of paper planes.
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Loki » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:50 pm

crypt lord hero that focuses on healing

Ever seen the EotA crypt lord?
Let's do what comes naturally
ImageImageImageImage
I'll be waiting in Haven.

User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Deschain » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:07 pm

vesuvan wrote:Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?

I think I know what dusk is saying. Some unit animation and size just look better for some role then others (imagine Archmage as a melee tank). Each unit's appearance appeals to a certain stereotypical motive. A map maker plays on those stereotypes and makes (a hopefully unique) hero.

For example Blood Mage as is, isn't a sieger but give him superb fire spell and voila - Arro Kree, an excellent sieger.

Loki: Crypt Lord was a tank if I recall correctly. He had few healing spells (Line heal, Spiked Armor, Self Regeneration) and disables (Sleep spell) and target shooty beam of pwnzoring. He had one or two spells to heal others were classic Paladin type stuff.
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

User avatar
Rising_Dusk
Chosen of the Intargweeb
Posts: 4029
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: And The Winner Is...

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:04 pm

Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?

The spells and attack types you are permitted to use within bounds of reason rest on the animations therein found on the models. I mean really, what if you watched the movie Harry Potter, but instead of Harry being a wizard he was a pro wrestler, but looked exactly like he does now. Would you claim "Oh, the director is free to do whatever he pleases because it's his movie, even if the visuals make no sense with the design"? No, you'd whine and complain about a 60 pound preteen wrestling down griffons and ogres.

The same applies here. The hero's model is one of the most important impacts on how that hero will inevitably play. There are some models that with clever design can work as other things (Refer to Tornne as an INT death knight caster). However, very few models follow this exception.

These conventions as you call them are founded in sense and logic and are therefore unfallable by opinion.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

Locked

Return to “Hero Contest #2”