AotZ < DoE (apparently)

This is where all random discussion about AotZ goes. If it doesn't feel like it fits anywhere else but is still related to the map, this is the place to post it.
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pandamanar
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by pandamanar » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:51 pm

We all love Desert of Exile, but we also love Advent of the Zenith. I know you are adament in your opinion, and I respect that (I'm not here to convince you, just here to voice my thoughts), but I still do not believe that DoE has the same "immersion" that AoTZ has. Yeah, the game from a technical stand-point is at least 20x better, and yes I do yell "SOooozeeennnN!!" when he comes near me, but I still do see the Warcraft in Desert of Exile. When I play AoTZ, you could literally convince me you had created a retail game and I bought it at Best Buy 5 minutes ago. It immerses me into the game like no other. This is my first and last reason why I love it so much. When I play DoE, I just can't get into character... when I'm shooting down n00bs with Rose, I can still see the computer and printer and mountain of Dew* can's piled beside me. When I'm taking down a frantic Janise with the flying body of her own Banite's ... this is the epitome of epic.

I like both games equally, but for different reasons. Once v1.09 comes out... I'm sure my opinions will change. I mean, new heroes... condition causing trebuchets... new skins...
What I'm trying to say is, this thread is pointless. I am absolutely sure that Dusk will not forget AoTZ, and both maps will advance even farther into the Wc3 Hall of Fame!
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by vesuvan » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Dusk has touched upon something, but merely glanced a blow, that I would like to bring up for the sake of discussing what people might call "epic" spells.

Let's say you want to make a hero that works like a tank. To accomplish this, you may either; give the hero five abilities that make it virtually immortal to a deterministic degree, or give the hero some qualities that would make it relatively better at tanking, while still forcing it to accept the general vulnerabilities most heroes have.

Take aotz for example, kisrug dins has two blinks and a stun, which means you can NOT kill him. It's not a matter of strategy or player cunning, it's a matter of realizing your hero has the capability to disregard any enemy attempt to try to kill you. It's the same thing with kharn, he isn't exactly immortal, but you simply wait for the kind of situation where kharn IS immortal, then attack with impunity.

Do you see what is happening here? Instead of each hero delicately interacting, you have twelve different kinds of opportunists being virtually inactive until their time to shine comes. Playing a game with kharn, scamp, kisrug dins, and kree feels like playing a game where ryu, simon belmont, the pong paddle, and megaman are included all in their original forms. The heroes are so specialized and different that there is no gray area to make room for tactics beyond basic black and white logic of when to use your over-specialized spell to wreak havok.

This is what makes DoE heroes awesome, the moderation. Genobee might be the quintessential tank, but he has raw HP numbers that would be looked upon by a inexperienced player and met with a "that's it?", and that's a reality, I've seen geno get tanked by people when his HP has been lowered, or has otherwise been compromised. Every DoE hero has subtle strengths that allow them to interact. Stack this on top of the condition system integrating every hero, and any semblance of black and white strategy has been removed from the game.

Let's be honest, a spell like precision feels epic for the same reason every spell in aotz does, it's over specialized, and has a far too great return on payoff.

What makes DoE heroes epic, is that the lack of hardlined limits on the heroes and ridiculous trump cards enables an intelligent player to maximize the use of their hero, even if it is in a chasing match against tornne, a melee throw down against caliga, or even a test of survival against victor. Once you have adjusted your mindset, suddenly the less polarized aspects of heroes seem a lot more important.

Aotz is communism with castes, DoE is capitalism.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Loki » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:08 pm

[aside: Is that pandamana?]
Yes.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by pandamanar » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:50 pm

I must disagree once more. Epic is not simply the ability to wreck absolute havoc on your enemy without taking a dent of damage in the process. Because in my opinion, AoTZ would be 10x better without KD, or Kharn... or Scamp (gasp!) who are many heroes who can pull this off.

The difference between DoE and AoTZ can be easily described.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:35 pm

pandamanar wrote:Because in my opinion, AoTZ would be 10x better without KD, or Kharn... or Scamp (gasp!) who are many heroes who can pull this off.
You just discredited yourself entirely in my eyes. Aotz would not be better without those heroes, as a matter of fact AotZ would be nothing but just another AoS. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I fully agree with what Ves said, word for word.
Vesuvan wrote:Let's be honest, a spell like precision feels epic for the same reason every spell in aotz does, it's over specialized, and has a far too great return on payoff.
Exactly, and this is why I know all of you that love AotZ 2.00 for spells like Holocaust or Ascension or Precision would utterly and totally loathe 3.00.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Wufei » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:14 am

I'm sorry for offending you on the terrain Dusk, I didn't mean to say that the terrain was bad... just that it could feel more desert-y. No offense intended, everything to me is a harmless suggestion. There's no hate behind it.

As for panda, I disagree. The heroes should stay because they add to the epic feel. I kinda agree more so on Dins than Kharn (Mainly because of meteors, not ult), but they still are good heroes. It's not like AotZ is DBZ Tribute or something, where your hits are wimpy but your beam attacks obliterate everything in sight. I think now what I liked most of the maps wasn't the feel, but the aiming system... say NO to instas. xD

And once again Dusk, I'm sorry sorry sorry for getting across the message that the terrain in DoE sucked. It doesn't, I meant it could be improved. Well, I'm off to bed. Ciao, I'll check postbacks in the morn.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:31 am

It wasn't really your terrain comment that got me, it was the entirety of the post. Basically, if what you said in your last post is true, I failed at making DoE. That's what it really boils down to for me. I mean, I like my map, but if I'm the only person standing beside it as opposed to AotZ... That says something fierce.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:19 am

*TheIrishPatriot likes DoE more, and agrees with Vesuvan, only not so eloquently*
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by dmaargke » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:42 am

<--- Likes DoE much more in almost every sense but still prefers AotZ terrain.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Evernite. » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:52 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:It wasn't really your terrain comment that got me, it was the entirety of the post. Basically, if what you said in your last post is true, I failed at making DoE. That's what it really boils down to for me. I mean, I like my map, but if I'm the only person standing beside it as opposed to AotZ... That says something fierce.
You're not the only person standing for it, but people have been waiting for a new AotZ release for so long that they seem to be opposed to you working on DoE. I doubt anyone would question either of your maps.

As everyone said, there is a thrilling feel to AotZ, one particular adrenaline shot: it's all about the anticipation and precision of your actions, but it concerns heroes more than it concerns buildings. In a way, this is different from the nature of DoE, as your base can be back-doored within 15 minutes and it has more of a strategical gameplay.

I surely am repeating what everyone said, but I just wanted to clarify that no one didn't like you working on DoE prior to AotZ; for me, the former is a kind of structure upon which the latter will be built, with the experience gained from balancing one game to its maximum, to make the other as best as possible.

All in all, those two maps are the only two I enjoy playing anymore on Battle.Net, and what is good about them is that they're similar but at the same time so different that there's always one that will be better suited for your mood. In AotZ's case, it's about being subtle and epic; for DoE, it's more about mastering your hero and having the most fun with it.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Daryll-The-Damned » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:14 pm

Sigh...Alright, I'm not gunna lie. 2.00...has to have been the most epic map I had ever played, all the hero's were larger then life, with epic spells and epic feats of epic teamwork, not to mention the epic story.

However,

I'd have to put my money on DoE. All my point's have already been made, most of them in ways more eloquent then I could make them, but the bottom line is that DoE is simply superior in my eyes. The heros, the pushing, the epic awesome battles between players, not to mention the genius of a unified simplistic buff system. Call me a fanboy, but it's just better in almost every way, shape, form and function.

To all those who say DoE is not as "epic" or it doesn't have the same "feeling" as Aotz, I just have to disagree. DoE is just as epic, if not more so, then Aotz.

I especially enjoy the theme of simplistic complexity that Dusk has inserted into his heros...Because you have to admit, the hero's of Aotz were overly complex to the point of absurdity.

Anyway, I've degenerated into rambling. I trust Dusk with his ability (Proven twice now) to create an engrossing and suitably epic map in 3.00. Even if it is completely different from 2.00, I know that it will be awesome.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Wufei » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:43 pm

Daryll-The-Damned wrote: I'd have to put my money on DoE. All my point's have already been made, most of them in ways more eloquent then I could make them, but the bottom line is that DoE is simply superior in my eyes. The heros, the pushing, the epic awesome battles between players, not to mention the genius of a unified simplistic buff system. Call me a fanboy, but it's just better in almost every way, shape, form and function.
Yeah, given. I should be playing more DoE. I'm awaiting 1.09 as much as everyone on these forums and I enjoy the higher sense of teamwork in DoE... maybe AotZ is more of a 'superhero' map, as Dusk puts it. Maybe I just haven't learned to appreciate DoE because AotZ came first. It's hard for me to put in black and white when I explain it, but I like both maps. DoE incorporates teamwork excellently and forces hero suggestions to revolve around the map, not vice versa, thus resulting in original heroes and twists on existing concepts. The buffs may seem forgettable to the untrained eye, but those that fail to appreciate them learn to fear them quickly enough. Dammit, when I get home today, I'm gonna go play DoE. Anyone wanna play on East/West? I haven't played the game since 1.07.
Daryll-The-Damned wrote: Anyway, I've degenerated into rambling. I trust Dusk with his ability (Proven twice now) to create an engrossing and suitably epic map in 3.00. Even if it is completely different from 2.00, I know that it will be awesome.
Seconded in entirety.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Arcane » Thu May 01, 2008 4:12 am

I like DoE way better than AotZ Dusk, if that means anything to you.
I'm not going to list my reasons though, because everything has been (more or less) said by other people.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Merlin » Fri May 02, 2008 10:08 am

I lurvs me some DoE 'cause when both teams are on one screen teh map goes BOOM!

PS. For greater epicness, when the above occurs, please consider including a shaking screen, and that sound you hear in DBZ when planets are exploding. kkthxbai

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Daryll-The-Damned » Sat May 03, 2008 9:05 am

Yeah, 6v6 battles in DoE (Rare though they may be) are F*cking epic as hell...I have to say alot more then Aotz 6v6.

I especially love it when everyones in one lane and it's just a kill party. :D
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