AotZ < DoE (apparently)

[Final_Pantheon]

This may be slightly off topic, but people seem to be comparing AoS's ..

Have you tried incorporating an AI system (I'm not sure if that's the right term) into any/either of your maps, Dusk? I recently played EotA:T, and found that it had a rather intricate AI. This allows for practising by yourself (Although playing against computers is an entirely different thing to playing against humans), which is mainly what I use it for.

When I realised this, and tried playing against the AI, they were surprisingly intelligent, and worked together to kill the heroes on my team (also AI), which was ... unexpected.

I'm just wondering how complex the system would have to be, and how much effort would have to go into it (ie. How long it would take to make something like that.).

[Daryll-The-Damned]

This idea has been brought up before, and Vesuvan was even working on an AI to implement into the map. However, I can't recall if Dusk said that he would end up using it or not.

[Deschain]

I'm just wondering how complex the system would have to be, and how much effort would have to go into it (ie. How long it would take to make something like that.).

Ask poor vesu...

First you need a way of computers and players to communicate. Pings and messages are the best options. After that
you need to make few skill and item builds for your hero.

Finally you need to set their behavior so they are scripted in a smart way (They don't get stuck in trees and simmilar places or use their combat skills while running away; for example Rikter shouldn't use his Keen Edge when running away while he could use Whirlwind and and Desolation for escaping).

[Rising_Dusk]

AI works in EotA because most stuff is pretty superficial and creep-based to begin with, so little messups aren't as noticeable. However, in DoE or AotZ, it wouldn't work because you have to make intelligent decisions, and the intelligence of a decision is directly proportional to how much code you put into having the AI make the decision. In DoE, there is too much of each decision that must be left to a choice of two equal-valued options that can change the fate of a game. That doesn't exist in EotA ever, short of the mundane choices like "Top and bottom are dying, which do we save?"

In that same light, I'm an anal person. If it isn't good enough, I don't want to include it in the map. I'd be fighting with the AI code for years before it became good enough to give me a challenge, and those are years I just don't feel like spending developing something that's so boring to code.

[vesuvan]

The reason why AI is effective in some maps and not others is fairly simple, it is the difference in tactics and strategy. JASS is so slow that making an AI that can effectively micro is very difficult, but effort can still be put into overall strategy and be effective. There are very few mistakes that can be made when spellcasting in EotA, which is why they don't need spell labels or other exhaustive micro tools.

I dropped the AI project for DoE after making 9 heroes functional, the spell labeling system was incomplete, and the systems for the AI to navigate the map were massive. To make matters worse, dusk would have to be an expert in making AI systems to even maintain it, and he doesn't seem like the type who would want a lackey to wait on, and get waited on by for each version. It would have been easier to just port over the dota-allstars AI, but that would be horrible in DoE. My failure to use DoE as a platform for something superior is disappointing, but I'll cut my losses and slice my pride. Still, if you want to see the work I did, just ask, and I will upload.

I was incredibly arrogant in my bias towards AI because it's my favorite thing to do as a programmer, but It's just not practical in most situations.

[Panda_of_Doom]

I found AotZ in the fall of '06, and it grabbed me in a way no game ever had before. Then and now, AotZ had something that no other map could quite match. I was drawn to the scale of it, the feeling of epicness. It wasn't just that there was a rich story in the background; it really felt like the game and the story were the same thing. We were watching a band of battered, exhausted heroes make a last desperate, final, determined thrust into the heart of an otherworldly conquering army with the fate of the world hanging in the balance. They were not just models with skins and abilities; they were characters. Each one exuded personality and a uniqueness in every detail. The terrain wasn't just terrain; it was an epic setting, a stunning backdrop to the conflict. This was the winter of battles! Would they live to see a new spring? Ah! The whole map just came together so solidly, so synergistically. It wasn't a game, it was an experience. I mean, the units said stuff! How cool is that??

Of course, I was drawn in by the shinyness, but I stayed for the gameplay. It was the way things worked. Heroes required skill to be effective. Most spells that dealt damage or inflicted debuffs had to be aimed (meteors, Scatter, Timeshatter, FFG, Atrophy, Tempest ...), were tricky to use well (Backbreaker, Fugit, Pillars), left the caster vulnerable in some way (Dead Eye, Dead Aim, mind control, even Dahaka's blink, since it exposes his frail little body to damage), or were negateable (Empathy, Mind Rake). No one could just come up, throw off a few spells, and kill me unless I was sorely outplayed, outflanked, outganked, or overextended—in other words, unless I deserved it. And likewise, I had to rely on my team for cover, and they had to rely on me, and we had to rely on each other to get kills. Things were relatively balanced and fairly deep and there were no "noob heroes" who could go around getting easy kills with a few clicks. The macro strategy was big too, with the spawner heroes and the buyable waves and countering. There was a lot to it.

AotZ was the first map I really put effort into learning and performing in. It helped that the player base was then (and is still now) less than pro. I wasn't immediately put off. I felt I could contribute, even if I didn't quite know what everyone did. And now I've played, by conservative estimate, over 2500 games. Maybe over 3000. I play at least one game every night, and frequently more. My clanmates and I are relatively well-known among the cult-fandom circles that still involve themselves in the map.

DoE brought a lot of good things to the table. The conditions system was genius, and now faction is useful throughout the entire game, rather than having little value towards the end thanks to laws of supply and demand and limiting factors. But it just doesn't have the same spark. There's a story, sure, but it feels secondary. It doesn't feel like it's a part of the game. It feels like it's there behind the game, with the game, but it's not the game itself. The heroes are ... models with skins and abilities. Not characters. The conditions system, of course, doesn't help this, for all of its smoothness.

Now I've only played 150 or so games of DoE, thanks to bugs and my general dissatisfaction with the play style, so I won't pretend that I know everything about it, especially as it has changed rapidly. But it doesn't seem to play in the same way. There's far more in the way of undodgable attacks or point-click-pwn debuffs, and far fewer abilities with serious drawbacks or difficulties. Heroes combo too easily with themselves. The conditions system doesn't reach its full potential. Teamwork works differently, and not in a way I particularly like. There are some hero/item combos that are just ... no fun to play, or no fun to play against. And if you lose a lane and don't very, very quickly inflict a similar loss on your opponents, the game is over ... and losing a lane is a lot easier, thanks to blitzkrieg pushes and no telerods. This isn't to say that DoE offers nothing in the way of skill-oriented, team-oriented gameplay; it's a fine game in its own right, but the style just isn't for me. I prefer the flavor offered by AotZ.

Of course, I'm not saying AotZ is perfect. There are many things which could use some addressing. But I'd play it over DoE any day of the week ... and this is why I'm terrified. I'm terrified that AotZ is going to become something entirely different from what it once was, that it will no longer evoke the same awe or play in the same way. All this talk of changes really puts me on edge. I think the game is excellent right now and could be truly stellar with a few adjustments ... but at the same time, if it goes too far the way of DoE, everything that makes AotZ great will be gone. I'm trying to maintain some level of optimism and open-mindedness, trying to recognize that there could be ideas and concepts that I haven't even dreamed of which could add a whole new level of awesome to the game, and trying to not reactionistically, conservatively deny that change to the game, even to its basic structures, could be good. I want to trust Dusk when he says that AotZ 3.00 will be something new and wonderful and very distinctly AotZ. But ultimately I am ambivalent. I know this seems to express doubt in Dusk's abilities. I don't mean to come off that way (after all, he made the map!), but ... well, I'm really tied to AotZ. I love it. So I'm going to worry, as you do with anything you love.

So I am simultaneously eager and hesitant to learn where the game might go. I could talk about it for hours though ... I'd submit my own thoughts and opinions on what needs to be done and what's fine as is, but I don't imagine that they'd make any difference, whatever my experience and talent. If Dusk was willing to consider input, I'm sure he'd say as much.

That may be the most frustrating part—not being able to influence the eventual outcome of all this.

/essay

[Final_Pantheon]

I'd go through that again and try to quote the parts so I could talk about them, but I'd just lose myself in it (again).

However, there was a line that I can remember that really hit me ...

I'm terrified that AotZ is going to become something entirely different from what it once was, that it will no longer evoke the same awe or play in the same way. All this talk of changes really puts me on edge. I think the game is excellent right now and could be truly stellar with a few adjustments ... but at the same time, if it goes too far the way of DoE, everything that makes AotZ great will be gone.

This is exactly the way I feel about it, and all this ominous talk from Dusk about him hating how it is, and main components of the game (though not particularly good ones, such as the Power Generators) just makes me feel like the game is going to become DoE, which would be a shame. While DoE is a fantastic game, we already have a DoE.

Still, if you want to see the work I did, just ask, and I will upload.

I'd love to see what you've got working so far, and give you my opinion on it (which probably isn't very highly valued, but still ... I'd like to see what you've got). After I look at it, of course.



All the above posts mean, then, that an AI system for DoE/AotZ would be insanely difficult to incorporate into the game because of the complexity of said system (as it must take into account the many factors of the situational, dynamic etc. abilities of the heroes), and so is not going to happen?

It IS a shame, but it wasn't entirely unexpected that it wasn't possible. Still ... we live in hope.

[Rising_Dusk]

That may be the most frustrating part—not being able to influence the eventual outcome of all this.

That line hit me the most. Dude, the whole reason these forums exist is so that people can communicate easily, quickly, and efficiently their own ideas to me about my work. Don't be afraid to make new topics here with ideas or whatever, we'll discuss them and if I like them I will tell you -- And if I don't, of course I'll tell you that too. Don't be scared to talk to me, I'm not an unreasonable guy. :p

I'm terrified that AotZ is going to become something entirely different from what it once was

AotZ 3.00 is to AotZ 2.XX as SC2 is to SC1. The trick is that I recognize, much like Blizzard, that changing too much will destroy the game. I don't want that as much as you don't, trust me there. I'll try my hand at ensuring that AotZ holds together in playstyle, but some things just need to change. (Game length, for instance) When I get further along, I'll be able to better quantify how well I've stuck to the AotZ feel, but until then just settle yourself in the knowledge that I know better than anyone what my map should feel like.

Also, I disagree terribly and am particularly offended by your analysis of DoE, but I'm not here to argue so I'll just leave it at that.

This is exactly the way I feel about it, and all this ominous talk from Dusk about him hating how it is, and main components of the game (though not particularly good ones, such as the Power Generators) just makes me feel like the game is going to become DoE, which would be a shame. While DoE is a fantastic game, we already have a DoE.

Yeah, we do already have DoE. That's why AotZ would never inherit conditions or the like. The problem arises that people think that AotZ' flaws are what make AotZ feel the way it does. Things such as impregnable bases or hourlong games are not features of the map, they do not give it a unique atmosphere, they ruin the game and remind me every time I play it how poor of a job I did. The features that really are features will remain -- Things like the hero dynamics and stuff. When you really think about it, AotZ has nothing special about it at all, people just make up these little things to quantify it's atmosphere and end up confusing themselves on what atmosphere is in the first place.

I'd love to see what you've got working so far, and give you my opinion on it (which probably isn't very highly valued, but still ... I'd like to see what you've got). After I look at it, of course.

Every opinion is valuable if the person communicating it is respectful of everyone else's opinion. (You're fine in this regard) AI in general isn't pivotal to a map's development, don't worry so much about it. Ves, PM me what you have working if you want.

[dmaargke]

I'm not gonna lie, I greatly prefer the background in AotZ compared to DoE. And that's about all I can come up with that I like better. Oh and Ascension. That is probably the most EPIC ult in the entire world. Other than that I prefer DoE all the way. AotZ could be great with some tinkering/rebalance/bug fixes, but right now it's kind of bleh.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm not gonna lie, I greatly prefer the background in AotZ compared to DoE.

...They're the exact same storylines, dude.

[dmaargke]

I meant scenery backgrounds not story backgrounds. I just like the buildings and archways and paths of AotZ better than the barren desert look. Both are nice but it's a personal opinion thing.

[TheIrishPatriot]

I like both a lot, but yeah, I like the feel of the background more in AotZ. What I've always disliked about AoM is the feel of its background.

[Final_Pantheon]

I agree, I prefer the "scenery" of AotZ better. I think that a battle which took place in an icy tundra just sounds much cooler than a barren wasteland. Both are good, but I prefer the snow. Another personal preference, as dmaargke said.

Yeah, we do already have DoE. That's why AotZ would never inherit conditions or the like. The problem arises that people think that AotZ' flaws are what make AotZ feel the way it does. Things such as impregnable bases or hourlong games are not features of the map, they do not give it a unique atmosphere, they ruin the game and remind me every time I play it how poor of a job I did. The features that really are features will remain -- Things like the hero dynamics and stuff. When you really think about it, AotZ has nothing special about it at all, people just make up these little things to quantify it's atmosphere and end up confusing themselves on what atmosphere is in the first place.

I know you're right, that AotZ has countless bugs, issues etc., but I'm a bit biased when I compare other maps to your work. Every map I've ever played since discovering AotZ (And then DoE a short time later) has failed to meet any standards I have. Even when I compare them to AotZ's bugs, glitches, insanely long games and such. Every single map has failed.

I guess it's just because I find your style of designing maps to be so superior to everyone else's styles (ToB, AoM, EotA, etc.). The way you design skills, maps (as in appearances), heroes ... you put so much effort and thought into the way these things are set out, that I just have this belief in my head that the above mentioned maps are a decade behind you (I know some are ... but you know what I mean?). The quality is so much better, even when comparing their maps to AotZ, which was your first (Which ASTOUNDS me).

When comparing maps to the likes of DoE and AotZ (even as it is now), what can they do but fail to make it?

Thanks for the great maps! xD

[dmaargke]

I know you're right, that AotZ has countless bugs, issues etc., but I'm a bit biased when I compare other maps to your work. Every map I've ever played since discovering AotZ (And then DoE a short time later) has failed to meet any standards I have. Even when I compare them to AotZ's bugs, glitches, insanely long games and such. Every single map has failed.

I guess it's just because I find your style of designing maps to be so superior to everyone else's styles (ToB, AoM, EotA, etc.). The way you design skills, maps (as in appearances), heroes ... you put so much effort and thought into the way these things are set out, that I just have this belief in my head that the above mentioned maps are a decade behind you (I know some are ... but you know what I mean?). The quality is so much better, even when comparing their maps to AotZ, which was your first (Which ASTOUNDS me).

When comparing maps to the likes of DoE and AotZ (even as it is now), what can they do but fail to make it?

Thanks for the great maps! xD

/buttkissing

Just kidding I actually agree with you.

[Final_Pantheon]

/buttkissing

Just kidding I actually agree with you.

Comes off as a bit "I worship the ground you walk on", but whatever. I seem to have got my point across.