Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:15 pm

He's talking about Rigor Mortis. And they are both used differently. So I don't even know why he's comparing them.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:26 pm

vesuvan wrote:A hero's capability is determined by how effective they are if played as well as humanely possible, using the majority of the knowledge available on how to play the hero. It is only possible to measure a hero's capability when every player involved is attempting to play the hero at it's maximum performance level. A scene of people attempting to play AotZ2 at it's highest level does not exist to my knowledge. There are only casual player groups.
You've clearly never played our in-house games. :p
vesuvan wrote:A tier list is used as a tool for competitive players to increase their odds of winning by choosing heroes with more capability, or attempting to choose a hero that will have an advantage against those heroes. This list is constructed using data from testing the capability of individual heroes. Allow me to remind you that this data can only be retrieved from competitive play.
I read your first post in this thread and that still hasn't changed my stance. There is such a thing as a tier-listing, yes, but it does not require competitive play if it is not intended for competitive play. It is not 'illegal' to create a tier listing of heroes or something, especially because it's his own time he's spending to do it, so lay off the kid for it.
vesuvan wrote: There are no tiers in AotZ. The entire premise of your topic is beyond the absurdity level that would make even a theoretical discussion completely unfounded in reason. If you want to make yourself useful, then engineer a theory of how to consistently perform well in AotZ, find others with similar goals, then share your findings. If you accrue enough human resources, it will facilitate the development of a tier list that has valuable information regarding the objective of winning the game.

The whole point is moot when we observe that a hero's effectiveness is not the desired value, that would be either the function for probability of winning against every possible bane team, of six order heroes, or vice-versa.
Yeah, great, that's just a bunch of babble saying that he's not entitled an opinionated list of who is the best hero and who isn't. Christ, dude, stop being such a buzzkill and let people rank heroes however the hell they want to.
Loki wrote:He's talking about Rigor Mortis. And they are both used differently. So I don't even know why he's comparing them.
I dunno why one is comparing DoE heroes to AotZ heroes anyways.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Oxygen » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:05 am

So, what's the point of this thread? Listing heroes that everyone already know are strong is useless. Why not list suggestions instead? Why not use the actual aotz update thread? What makes you above and beyond that?
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:57 am

Not all discussions have to be useful to the map's development. Some can be about peoples' opinions.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:51 pm

SetaSoujirou wrote:MYRIAD SUSCEPTIBLE TO GANKS?
Last time I checked, skeleblocking is more effective then a ton of what other heroes have, his mana is by far superior to God tier KD. Never runs out, dunno how you play him son but he's pretty god tier.

Scamp is susceptible to ganks with his low life and creep low movespeed. Meteors are inaccurate. Ignis latro is too slow therefore it is a terrible skill in high tier play. His is pretty bad if the enemy is smart because you can be force attacked even if you're allied to scamp. Creep jumping is fairly useless and only stalls.
tee-hee.

Well, when you consider that two of Order's best gankers (Kisrug and Dhaka) have blinks then your argument kind of dissolves. The only way Myriad can defend against Kisrug and Dhaka blinking on top of him without team support is to either have the blink item (whatever it's called) or to position his skeletons in a close right around to all focus fire and kill them the second he gets blinked on. Unfortunately that strategy falls apart if you're using skeletons to push towers or if the skeletons are dead. It's for that exact reason that discussing a character's matchups against the opposing faction's gankers is really the best way to determine whether or not they are "easily gankable". I can tell you right now, Scamp would hate Janise if they weren't on the same faction. On that note, Scamp has pretty good matchups against Kisrug, Rhonin, and Dahaka. He outruns Rhonin (and actually outruns everybody since he has the highest run speed in the game) and can easily jump into a creep to force him to waste Augment. Kisrug can't land Meteors (again, because scamp is so fast) unless Scamp isn't paying attention. He can blink out of anything dahaka throws at him, and what makes it more difficult for Dahaka to kill scamp is the fact that if Dahaka gets hit with a Meteor then he literally get's 2-shot by a Meteor-Fireball combo. While it's extremely difficult to actually hit Dahaka with a meteor, it does mean he has to be careful about blinking offensively. While scamp does typically die in the space of a single stun, his mobility and escape tools are designed to counter-balance that fact.

Either way, AotZ is not a 1v1 game unless you're playing with pubbies, I agree that Jhita is an awful character by himself but he's a great team player, he's probably Greel's best teammate and the only one who works better with Scamp is Ginther.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:59 pm

and can easily jump into a creep to force him to waste Augment.
One of the most stupidest things ever to do as Scamp. Tempest can OHKO him right after that.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:15 pm

Loki wrote:
and can easily jump into a creep to force him to waste Augment.
One of the most stupidest things ever to do as Scamp. Tempest can OHKO him right after that.
Depends on whether or not scamp has +str items, and their relative levels. Also if you're quick enough you can Agon out of the tempest, since you get invincibility frames when you Agon. (it's a nice desperation tactic for dodging Shaftstorm too) But you are correct it's a rather unnecessary tactic, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, since Rhonin can't even get close to scamp if scamp doesn't want him to

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:09 pm

Depends
Situational arguments holds no weight.

I do not know what this "invincibility frame" you are talking about, so I'm gonna assume you are making that up.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by SetaSoujirou » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 pm

I don't know how you play Myriad, but I can actually micro skeles to block. Sorry for the misunderstanding in skill. As for losing skeles/occupied skeles while heroes are coming, that's pretty stupid, as any good AoS player can watch the minimap and notice hero blips traveling towards them, or if you can count up to 6, the number that are present. Blinks are also predictable as hell, and even easier to juke. Greel is clearly a one man team as well. I don't understand how Janise vs. Scamp is relevant to anything but okay. Rule of thumb, don't fire skills until they use their blinks, or chances are you'll miss, Dahaka is boring. Kisrug is easy mood! Give me more valid arguments rather than pairing them up with the most imba of the game and trying to profit please. I'm going off the belief that you're a pub, and you lack theorycraftisrtjsrnng.

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:52 pm

Loki wrote:
Depends
Situational arguments holds no weight.

I do not know what this "invincibility frame" you are talking about, so I'm gonna assume you are making that up.
That's honestly one of the strangest arguments I've ever seen.

Try standing inside a Shaftstorm or a Time Shatter, then Agon'ing to a corpse also in the area of effect. If you time the agon just as the effect hits, you won't take damage.
SetaSoujirou wrote:I don't know how you play Myriad, but I can actually micro skeles to block. Sorry for the misunderstanding in skill. As for losing skeles/occupied skeles while heroes are coming, that's pretty stupid, as any good AoS player can watch the minimap and notice hero blips traveling towards them, or if you can count up to 6, the number that are present. Blinks are also predictable as hell, and even easier to juke. Greel is clearly a one man team as well. I don't understand how Janise vs. Scamp is relevant to anything but okay. Rule of thumb, don't fire skills until they use their blinks, or chances are you'll miss, Dahaka is boring. Kisrug is easy mood! Give me more valid arguments rather than pairing them up with the most imba of the game and trying to profit please. I'm going off the belief that you're a pub, and you lack theorycraftisrtjsrnng.

:emd:
Jeez, not quite sure what I said to elicit that kind of personal attack but alright. You are correct, Myriad really needs to be attentive to incs since he needs to plan his escape ahead of time. I'm not sure, are you trying to argue that in order to survive, Myriad needs to juke every single blink from Dahaka and Kisrug? Does that strike you as being a good thing for Myriad's survivability?

My comment about Janise and Scamp was just an attempt to point out that survivability is relative. idk I was pretty clear about that.

And yeah, Greel's pretty awesome. If his targets are slowed by Jhita he's even more awesome.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:24 pm

I find that to be extremely laughable that you think that is possible when it's an instant blink (With a noticeable cast time)
Create a replay.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:29 pm

Loki wrote:I find that to be extremely laughable that you think that is possible when it's an instant blink (With a noticeable cast time)
Create a replay.
Seta wrote:theorycraftisrtjsrnng.
Bless you :o
Maybe you should try it ;D.

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:08 pm

Okay, well, I read this topic and think that Ressa has the right of whatever is going on. It's okay to have different opinions and all, but we all need to respect each other's opinions on the matter as well. This discussion can be OK as long as you all keep it civil.

Hello and welcome to the forum, Ressa. Typically speaking, most people who come and start posting their own opinions and thoughts right into topics in intelligent ways, people will have a tendency to assume that you are arrogant and egotistical or something silly. From reading your posts, I think you're cool by me, so I'm not bothered.

I will keep this topic unlocked and monitor it myself. Please, be civil, and don't think I won't utterly delete posts that aren't. (This goes for everyone!)
Cheers!

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:00 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:Okay, well, I read this topic and think that Ressa has the right of whatever is going on. It's okay to have different opinions and all, but we all need to respect each other's opinions on the matter as well. This discussion can be OK as long as you all keep it civil.

Hello and welcome to the forum, Ressa. Typically speaking, most people who come and start posting their own opinions and thoughts right into topics in intelligent ways, people will have a tendency to assume that you are arrogant and egotistical or something silly. From reading your posts, I think you're cool by me, so I'm not bothered.

I will keep this topic unlocked and monitor it myself. Please, be civil, and don't think I won't utterly delete posts that aren't. (This goes for everyone!)
Cheers!

rawr!
Yeah, I do have the bad habit of somehow coming off as being really arrogant or overbearing. I've been trying to tone it down but to little success, maybe I should just stop trying

*flips hair* one cannot have civilized discourse with this kind of rabble anyway. *takes a single sip of wine and smashes the glass at the base of the throne*
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Fledermaus » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:59 am

Loki wrote:
and can easily jump into a creep to force him to waste Augment.
One of the most stupidest things ever to do as Scamp. Tempest can OHKO him right after that.
Loki wrote: Situational arguments holds no weight.

I do not know what this "invincibility frame" you are talking about, so I'm gonna assume you are making that up.

?

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