Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:22 am

Atleast type out what you are saying? As opposed to "harf durf question mark"

And it isn't situational. It's pure fact that a Scamp would die to a tempest.
His response was built on "What if's" That is what I was referring to.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Fledermaus » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:37 am

It relies on Tempest not being on CD, having mana, decent reaction times, actually wanting to use it on scamp. That sounds pretty situational to me.

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:08 am

Fled has a very valid point, you know. It's not necessarily an instant kill, once you factor natural hero resistance into the picture.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Oxygen » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:20 am

Fledermaus wrote:It relies on Tempest not being on CD, having mana, decent reaction times, actually wanting to use it on scamp. That sounds pretty situational to me.
that applies to all spells
all spells are situational; do you really want to use it NOW?

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Fledermaus » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:37 am

Exactly oxy, loki was saying that Scamp not getting 1-Hit-KOed by Tempest after wasting Agument on his creep body, due to items/level difference, is situational -

I can't even finish this post. This whole argument is a joke :p
Last edited by Fledermaus on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:39 am

And therefore by default, everything is situational. Aaaanyways, I just tested and Scamp is guaranteed to live if at full life to a Tempest. TW only deals 500 damage, Scamp has 700 life, this is all before hero resistance. So oh well.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:52 pm

Fleder, I wasn't trying to build an argument over a level 21 scamp with 6 +health items taking a tempest from a level 11 rhonin or anything. But you really should take common item builds into mind. A lot of heroes use Evanescence as a part of their strat, it's something that needs to be taken into consideration, you can't just completely ignore the fact that Rhonin and Zhall can utilize Evanescence just because its situational, because it's a potential threat to you. I'm also fairly sure that lvl1 Tempest would do more damage to a level 11 scamp than level 3 tempest would deal to a level 21 scamp (which is where the comment about relative levels came from), I know Scamp's fireball works like that (it kills a lot of things at level 11 that it doesn't at 21) But maybe Tempest's damage works differently, idk I never play Rhonin.

Anyway, Scamp usually runs a few (1-3) +str items since he gets the biggest health boost (as a percentage) from them out of any hero (and he's a really good farmer) Is that situational? I guess? but him not having any +str items is just as situational. I typically run 1k hp on my scamp at max level (which is 3 +str items). Maybe I'm the only one in the world who does that, I guess I shouldn't assume otherwise~
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:41 pm

Lots of people spam mana regen items with boots alongside a Dynamo (for the mana burn and int).
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:38 pm

I'm a firefly scamp guy.
Can't deny delicious HP/MP regenerations + that lovely +2 STR stat that is <3 for Scamp
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:44 pm

I dunno if Firefly is actually worth the price or not. What is it, 2200?
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:00 pm

Here's what I was talking about with Agon, finally got one of my friends online to do it with me. I got it to work on the 4th try. I wasn't able to dodge the entire shaftstorm, you can see I took about 20 damage (after the agon heal) but yeah.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8206/agon1.png
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5168/agon2.png
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9754/agon3.png
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4207/agon4.png
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Loki » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:18 pm

I dunno if Firefly is actually worth the price or not. What is it, 2200?
2400

But since the faction converter, it's been quite the investment.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Bobo_The_Kodo » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:55 pm

Here's what I was talking about with Agon, finally got one of my friends online to do it with me. I got it to work on the 4th try. I wasn't able to dodge the entire shaftstorm, you can see I took about 20 damage (after the agon heal) but yeah.
If you look at those pictures you posted, you would see that barely any of the arrows landed on the position of scamp, which is why he took little damage. Agon does not make you invulnerable, no question about it.

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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Ressa » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:57 am

Just to be clear, you are arguing that random arrow placement accounted for a shaftstorm doing only 20 damage? Honestly I expected people to say that I doctored the photos before they started saying things like that.

You can clearly see Solana firing off the Shaftstorm (in the first screen) right next to both the corpse and where Scamp was when he used Agon.
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Re: Cecil's AotZ: Tier List (v2.02c)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:10 am

Well, I made the map, and I can assure you -- Agon does not prevent any damage. There is 0 period of time where Scamp takes reduced damage. Shaftstorm is just a spell that deals damage based on how close to the center you are. Furthermore, you haven't provided the level of that Shaftstorm, but it is likely from those screenshots that it is very low level from the low count of arrows spawned. In light of that, I propose that you have simply teleported to the edge of the AOE.

Note:
  • Because the corpse was close to the AOE visually does not mean that it was mechanically.
  • Where you landed clearly was not exactly where the corpse was, but about 150 WC3 distance to the north-east of its visual position. (See note above)
  • The damage dealing capacity of Shaftstorm is not constant over the AOE. (On the edge deals substantially less damage)
  • You were on the edge of the final AOE in those screenshots.
I would guess that you are taking natural behavior of WC3 and arguing something that appears correct to you, but simply is not. Sorry.
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