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Bait & Switch, Twin Partners in Crime

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:21 am
by AnemicRoyalty
Bait & Switch
Twin Partners in Crime
Agility; Bane.

The elite city security squad met little resistance in the hidden laboratory. The baneites who had worked here now slumped in sad heaps or lay sprawled on the floor as their blood pooled on the tiles. Vertejaune had decided to end this rogue operation... mercilessly. Flames revealed indistinct shapes in glass prisons; failures. The last room on the right held a grotesque sight; a creature that looked like at least two baneites had been melted together. It was bloated, twisted and had an impossible bone structure. It was stuck with tubes, cables, shards of metal and wards of sinister magic. The hardened captain bared his teeth, beating down the impulse to gag at the sight. The creature's torment worsened, it began violently thrashing, tearing loose from its restraints. The squad braced themselves for battle with the abomination when a change came over it. Its skin bubbled and blistered, and with a chorused voice screamed as unseen hands tore it in half. The halves steamed, twisted, flowed through mismatched shapes and faces. Eventually they calmed and reformed into a pair of baneite girls, utterly identical. The captain motioned to his troops, their orders were clear. Four unsettling eyes opened in unison as the newborns rose to their feet, their motions mirrored. The squad advanced, weapons drawn. The creatures moved in a blur, it was imposible to watch one as it was swiftly replaced by the other. They darted out the door and disappeared in the flames. The captain collected himself, noted the fresh cuts and scratches. The Lord of Deceit would not be pleased with his failure.

...

Fate or inevitability eventually caught up with the pair who named themselves Bait and Switch. No longer small-time criminals, they now serve the Bane... but how true can any freedom be when granted by Deceit himself?

Innate:
Double Trouble
  • Passive.
    Bait and Switch share an empathic bond; when one takes damage or receives healing, the other's health is affected the same way. Both heroes must be within range of the fountain to receive healing from it. Conditions are separate for each hero.
Level 1 Skill:
Psych Strike
  • Melee Range Targeted.
    Deals X Physical/Magickal damage (depending on the caster). If both twins hit the same target within Y seconds, the target is Muted for Z seconds.
Level 1 Skill:
Flip Trip
  • Instant Cast.
    Switches the twins' positions and grants X% move speed for Y seconds.
Level 1 Skill:
Polarise
  • Instant Cast.
    Brings the twins together if they are further than X distance apart, or pushes them in opposite directions if they are closer than Y distance apart. Ruins enemies near the centre for Z seconds.
Level 6 Ultimate:
Synchronicity
  • Passive.
    When both twins use the same ability within 2 seconds, the effect of that ability is improved by X%.
Notes:
  • * Bait deals Physical damage, Switch deals Magickal damage. This goes for their basic autoattack, too.
    * I'm thinking they would only have 3 useable inventory slots each. Not sure, but that seems like it would be balanced.
    * I gave a rough figure of 2 seconds for the ultimate to allow room for lag and whatnot. The things affected would be damage, cooldowns, condition duration and the like.
    * I've got some basic ideas for their design, but it would be difficult to pull off in wc3 with the available models. Think neat and classy outfits, but shredded on the left or right side respectively as though even their clothes were ripped in half when they were separated... Something I'm looking at for similar characters for a comic or game that I may never make :P
Taking yet another crack at the twins hero business. I was motivated to take up the challenge again a while back after reading some old Gunnm/Battle Angel manga online and seeing these cyborg twins characters Elf and Zwolfe (11 and 12 in German with some translation errors, it's meant to be Zwölf -thanks Babelfish- note to self, Zwölf = kickass name) and getting inspired or whatever. I think this one is probably the fifth or so, codenamed Revenge of Twins Hero. I've also got Son of Twins Hero and Twins Hero Rides Again. That leaves... Bride of Twins Hero, House of Twins Hero and Twins Hero 2: Electric Boogaloo left to get it right :P

Looking at other DoE heroes (and hero suggestions), I get the feeling that the abilities don't have enough of a drawback (like a self-mute, bleed or ruin) but I can't get a feel for how to implement that without it feeling tacked on. What abilities would be overpowered enough to warrant that kind of vulnerability?

Anywho, rawr. What's your take, folks?

P.S. Yes, I'm aware things are quiet as fandangle around here, but I know y'all still stalk these boards, so come forth and be heard :D

Re: Bait & Switch, Twin Partners in Crime

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:43 pm
by Phox
Glad to see some people are still a little active here.

The main issue I see is not that their abilities have no drawbacks, but that they aren't really built around conditions. They're more a twins hero that happens to also have conditions. Maybe some way that uses their twin nature to their advantage when it comes to dealing with those (such as, for example, if Flip Trip swapped conditions between them). The other thing I noticed is that other than the physical/magical damage on Psych Strike, there's not much of a difference between the two of them. I dunno if that's intentional, but it just feels less interesting than it could be.

Re: Bait & Switch, Twin Partners in Crime

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:57 pm
by 2-P
Double Trouble: I'm not sure if the heroes would work without passive, but the problem I see is that they are very susceptible to AoE spells, sInce they take twice as much as much damage from them. This passive kinda forces you to keep the two away from each other and I don't like that at all.

Psych Strike: 3 variables are bad (in my book :P), if you look at other spells in DoE you'll see that there's close to no spell that has 3. On top of that I think that the duration (Y variable) should be a fixed value anyway.

Flip Trip: It's a great spell by itself, really like it. But I wonder what the benefits of switching them is. It allows you to easily get the double Psych Strike, okay. But besides that? I mean they share health so you can't use it to save one of them. I don't see how it interacts with the other abilities though.

Polarise: Eh, not a fan of it. it's "too much" positional play together with Flip Trip. I don't see why you would want both of these abilities on a hero, they just don't fit together. Dunno. maybe I'm just missing something.

Synchronicity: Again, I like the ability by itself. But not together with the other abilities. Why in the world would you want to use Flip Trip twice within 2 seconds? For a double movement speed buff? That's just silly. :P
Same goes with Polarise. You bring them together and then push them away from each other again or something? oO


Ovearll a lack of damage output imho. Especially since one deals physical and the other magickal I would have expected more abilities that make use of it.


TLDR: I'd replace 2 abilities, probably Polarise and Synchronicity and look for a way to make Flip Trip "worth it".

Looking at other DoE heroes (and hero suggestions), I get the feeling that the abilities don't have enough of a drawback (like a self-mute, bleed or ruin) but I can't get a feel for how to implement that without it feeling tacked on. What abilities would be overpowered enough to warrant that kind of vulnerability?
No! No!!! Never try to force self-crippling abilities on a hero! You should actually try to avoid them, they're a pretty tricky thing and often make the player feel bad about using an ability if you get them wrong.

Re: Bait & Switch, Twin Partners in Crime

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:00 am
by AnemicRoyalty
Thanks for your replies guys :) I'd have posted sooner, but I've been busy renovating... and in the evening drinking to get over it :P
2-P wrote:Double Trouble: I'm not sure if the heroes would work without passive, but the problem I see is that they are very susceptible to AoE spells, sInce they take twice as much as much damage from them. This passive kinda forces you to keep the two away from each other and I don't like that at all.
The linked-health thing is kind of a cop-out on my part, really. It's the simplest answer I could think of to the situation where one hero dies and faction needs to be distributed. In hindsight, I hadn't considered situations where their health might be buffed by items and stuff, so there goes that argument :P

I had some ideas for more interesting health synergy, but it ended up feeling very tank-y. Like for example, if their health pools weren't directly linked and had a standard ability along the lines of:

Level 1 Skill:
Symbiosis
  • Passive
    Regenerates back to the current health of the twin with the highest health while free from conditions. X health per second.
Or possibly a modified version of Sozen's Reserves:

Level 1 Skill:
Equalise
  • Instant Cast
    Averages the twins' health between them. Automatically cast if one goes below 30%.
All just speculation, so rawr. It'd be more tank-like and I'd probably have to totally rethink the concept :<
Phox wrote:The other thing I noticed is that other than the physical/magical damage on Psych Strike, there's not much of a difference between the two of them. I dunno if that's intentional, but it just feels less interesting than it could be.
The Physical/Magickal damage split is pretty much entirely flavour at the moment but I'm keen to look into ways to make it more interesting.
2-P wrote:Synchronicity: Again, I like the ability by itself. But not together with the other abilities. Why in the world would you want to use Flip Trip twice within 2 seconds? For a double movement speed buff? That's just silly. :P
Same goes with Polarise. You bring them together and then push them away from each other again or something? oO.
I agree, it needs better synergy with the other abilities. I like the concept of coordination and timing between the two heroes, but not with how it interacts with the current Level 1 abilities.

Here's what I'm looking at right now, see what you think:
Clicketty-Click

Innate:
Double Trouble
  • Passive
    If one dies, both die. Just sayin'.
Level 1 Skill:
Psych Strike
  • Single Target
    Deals X Physical/Magickal damage and prevents the target from inflicting conditions for Y seconds or until it damages the caster. Melee range.
Level 1 Skill:
Slowbro
  • Single Target
    Inflicts Cripple to the caster and the target for X seconds. The opposite twin's attacks treat the target as if it were Ruined for the duration.
Level 1 Skill:
Flip Trip
  • No Target
    Switches the twins' positions and splits condition durations between them. X second cooldown.
Level 6 Ultimate:
Synchronicity
  • Self Buff
    Doubles both Twins' damage. X second duration, extended while both twins suffer the same condition. Both heroes share a cooldown on this ability.