Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

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andriejj
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by andriejj » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:38 am

Design and fun don't always come together. Crossfire was interesting, Volley is boring. No matter how much it fits the 'design', it remains boring. Especially when you remember that cool, old, channeling ability called Crossfire...

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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by 2-P » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:22 am

andriejj wrote:Design and fun don't always come together. Crossfire was interesting, Volley is boring. No matter how much it fits the 'design', it remains boring. Especially when you remember that cool, old, channeling ability called Crossfire...
Yeah, this.
I understand why she has been changed to the way she is now, since volley fits better to her, but it's just so plain compared to crossfire. If you have more fun with her now that's understandable. I don't want to complain about something in the hope of having it changed to the way I like it, that's stupid. It's more about making you aware of another perspective.
It just seems to me that the challenge and fun-factor of doe heroes hasn't got as much as attention as it used.

Meh, as I see it now it's not just me who feels that way. That's probably a point that should have been mentioned like a year ago, which would be the fault of your community. <.< It's not like you can smell what we like and dislike.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by VZManticoran » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:42 pm

Agreed... With both sides. Crossfire was an awesome mechanic, but the channeling removed her ability to use it very well. Maybe a compromise? Like, she shoots the Crossfire arrows like Rockets, but over like 2 or 3 seconds without the channel and with fairly large range, and maybe with a slow arrow speed, like 400 or something so it barely outruns people.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by SetaSoujirou » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:07 pm

Want to know why it's lame? It's a click shoot. Not only is it the fact that it's a click shoot, they're rare enough in DoE as is. She already has godlike speed.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Kurogamon » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:42 pm

Half the time I saw it used as a very mobile ability, outrunning them then using it at melee range. It's just aesthetics. Didn't you say that it's about epicness layered over simple mechanics? Crossfire is a perfect fit for that.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:16 pm

Andriejj wrote:Design and fun don't always come together. Crossfire was interesting, Volley is boring. No matter how much it fits the 'design', it remains boring. Especially when you remember that cool, old, channeling ability called Crossfire...
Probably not a good argument right now, considering I find Volley far more fun to use and it's better designed to fit Rose. By your own logic, Volley is clearly the better choice. Now you're going to respond with something about 'fun' being my opinion and you'll be right, but that doesn't change much.

Anyways, I'll look into it. I do like your suggestion for the ultimate. Arrows tracking bleeding units is cute, but would be very annoying with attacking.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by vesuvan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:24 pm

Premise 1: Channeled skills are bad for chasing heroes.
Premise 2: Crossfire is a channeled skill.
Conclusion: Crossfire is bad for a chasing hero.
I see no logical fallacy in that.
The fallacy is in your first premise. Spells with a channeling component are not necessarily bad design for heroes that would otherwise be focused on chasing. A spell with a channeling component does not have to clash with a hero that has other spells that reward mobility.

The new rose is an improvement, but I think it's an example of better execution and purpose. The new rose is very focused on mobility, but that just makes her different, not better.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:13 pm

That's not a fallacy, just so you're aware. If anything, it would be 'just being wrong.' And to be perfectly fair, I don't think I'm wrong. I can't think of any sort of channeling ability that is appropriate for a hero who is based upon movement mobility with a focus in chasing.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Oxygen » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:25 pm

How about being able to control the angle of the volley? As in, she's stuck there, but if you turn her 180, she turns at a certain rate and aims this way.. That would be pretty cool. Say, you're chasing someone, then get on their side, and start following them with a volley!

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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by vesuvan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:30 pm

That's not a fallacy, just so you're aware. If anything, it would be 'just being wrong.'
A structure does not retain all of the properties of its components. A property of staying still that is necessary for channeling contradicts a chaser hero, but this property is not necessarily derived by the higher order structure, the spell.

For example, a channeling spell could be used as a way to facilitate chasing without helping directly. Dota had a hero that had a spell that could reveal the location of nearby heroes with low HP and granted a movement bonus if there were any found. It wouldn't be a bad twist to have the spell be channeled, increasing in detection area for every second. Granted, this would push the hero further into an ambush role, but it could still work very well on a hero that focuses mainly on chasing.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:42 pm

Vesuvan wrote:A structure does not retain all of the properties of its components. A property of staying still that is necessary for channeling contradicts a chaser hero, but this property is not necessarily derived by the higher order structure, the spell.
The "property" by which a hero is "staying still" in order to use a spell that is only valuable when used over a long duration of time is indeed "derived" from the "higher order structure," otherwise known as the "spell."
Vesuvan wrote:It wouldn't be a bad twist to have the spell be channeled, increasing in detection area for every second. Granted, this would push the hero further into an ambush role, but it could still work very well on a hero that focuses mainly on chasing.
Thanks, you just proved my point. It changes the hero's role. I don't want to change Rose's role.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by TheDeathstalker » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:50 pm

So, Ves, if I follow your logic, which, I admit I am prone to fail at, you're saying it is possible to create a movement based hero with a channeling skill that really reinforces the movement and chasing role. Other than the DotA example, do you think you can come up with anything more? I'm intrigued because it's nonlinear thinking like this that tends to stumble upon great ideas like Dag, and I like great ideas. Best of luck, as I can't seem to think of one, but your mind works in mysterious ways, and I trust we'll see something interesting come out of this.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by 2-P » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:37 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:Anyways, I'll look into it. I do like your suggestion for the ultimate. Arrows tracking bleeding units is cute, but would be very annoying with attacking.
Ah yes, it was never meant for her normal attack, forgot to include that. Good to see someone actually replying to the hero that I posted lol.
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by Cooldood » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:37 am

How about crossfire where you select an area and you start shooting arrows randomly at the area, but where you can move around while your doing it?
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Re: Rose, Scarlet Maiden (PP-Mix)

Post by VZManticoran » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:17 am

That seems like something the model just isn't up for. I like the idea to just be able to change the direction it's shooting at, though... Hmm... Mind if I steal it for something?
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