Iine, Nightfall Mistress

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LightburneR
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Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by LightburneR » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:27 am

Iine
Nightfall Mistress
Agility; The Hallowed Order

==============================================

Shatter the sky
Tear the light from this dawn
Let it make way for dusk
Nightfall......

Nightfall......
Midnight tunes play in my ear
The shallow melodies of water. Flowing.
The scent of night.

Intoxicated, the smell
The sight
The sounds

I will draw on this canvus
The canvus of starry nights
Of dark oblivion,
Yet the compass of sailors

I shall paint.
With strokes, once recieved
Can't be returned.
And with each night.
Fall.

==============================================

Level 1 Skill:
Mark of an Artist (Active)
  • Marks the target area with a "Dark Brush Mark" for X seconds or until Iine is Y distance away from it. Iine may freely teleport to any "Dark Brush Mark".
Notes: "Dark Brush Mark"s are invunrable.
Teleporting to a mark will not break Oblivion's invisibilty effect.
Hopefully, each Mark will have a spell that teleports Iine to it, and one with a cooldown of about 4-5 seconds. -- AKA, Marks have local rather than Global cooldowns.

Level 1 Skill:
Oblivion (Active)
  • Enemies within X range of Iine are Crippled and turns Iine invisible for Y seconds.
Notes: Range should be 400ish.

Level 1 Skill:
To Draw the Stars (Active)
  • Marks Iine's current location with a "Star Mark" for A seconds. Whenever Iine strays more than X range from a "Star Mark", that mark is consumed to deal Y damage and extends Burn onto enemies for Z seconds in a line to every other mark.
Notes: Nothing happens if the "Star Mark" naturally expires.
Explaination:
For example, I have 3 marks.
I move too far away from the first mark. Automatically, that mark is destroyed, and it sends an "instant burnwave/heatwave" in the direction of the other 2 marks, ending at the location of the respective marks.

Level 6 Skill:
Astral Sign (Toggeable)
  • Whilst active, marks created by Iine's spells last for X seconds less. Whenever a mark expires, or is consumed, reset the cooldown of all her skills.
Comments

Eh... comments......

I know I somewhat stole Parehelius' (I think that was his name) Spirit of Siphoning (correct if wrong, once again). However, it was an essential and fundimental part of this build.

Enjoy.
Last edited by LightburneR on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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TheDeathstalker
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by TheDeathstalker » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:03 am

Not much to say, but here goes...

First and foremost, I'm not sure if you realized, but your hero's name is almost painful to read, Iine and line are damn near identical in this font, which is only made worse by the fact that both show up in one of the skills. It's just an aesthetic nightmare is all, on to the hero itself.

The first thing I get from this hero is that it's incredibly... boring, shall I say? One of the skills actually *makes* you immobile, and another is nothing but a short range teleport. While I get that these work together to let you silently lay traps, it just feels too alien, too annoying to do. Tack onto this that you have a AoE Shout Mute, which "should be spammable", and it just feels like the hero is going too many directions. To Draw the Stars also gives this feel, being a confusing, unnatural spell that can work, but doesn't really tie into the other skills in any meaningful way, and, in my op opinion, would really, really need to to be of real use.

The problems seem to more or less come to a head with the ultimate, as it weakens the other skills only to make them more spammable, but the problem is, one is already spammy, while Mark of an Artist has no real value to be spammed other than being annoying as there is no real easy way to be able to select between 4-5 of these marks to effectively dance (well, it may be doable, but would require extreme skill). So you have an ultimate that really only benefits one other skill while more or ignoring the others, and doing nothing by itself.

Overall, I think the key problem to this hero has to be a lack of a kick, this hero seems to do nothing but stand still and lay bombs that are too oddballish of skills to be pulled off properly or naturally. I hesitate to say why exactly this came about, but I think I can identify two of the sources.

1) A lack of focus. The very first step you should take after you come up with an idea, is to define the role of the hero. This role can be anything, but it needs to be there, and you need to keep it in mind for every skill. Then, you need to identify what key factors are needed to achieve this role, and make sure you stick to those. For an example of this, take a look at my Tortoise, I built it solely on this principle, deciding it needed to be a tank, then keeping in mind what tanks need, Threat and Survivability.

2) Getting too caught up in the details. While this hero feels very artsy, it also, well, feels too artsy. The skills, while interesting, are in no way natural to use. Imagine the hero, and now imagine playing the hero with these skills. Now, you may be saying "that's easy, I understand perfectly how this hero works and moves, it makes sense," you have to realize that of course you do, you created it. Now, try to imagine someone seeing the hero for the first time, as a whole. Do the skills make sense? Are they clear in their function/purpose? Are they natural to use to the normal human player? Is this hero fun for the normal human player? Is it fun for the skilled player? These are key to the quality of the hero, as well as to it's functionality. Once you have these in place, you should be able to form a strong, coherent hero that, if nothing else is a well rounded, fun hero.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

LightburneR
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by LightburneR » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:57 am

Ok, thank you for the quick reply......

The intent of this hero is definately a spammy, "dance-like" attack pattern, involving quick reflexes fast finger movement and selection.
TheDeathstalker wrote:2) Getting too caught up in the details. While this hero feels very artsy, it also, well, feels too artsy. The skills, while interesting, are in no way natural to use. Imagine the hero, and now imagine playing the hero with these skills. Now, you may be saying "that's easy, I understand perfectly how this hero works and moves, it makes sense," you have to realize that of course you do, you created it. Now, try to imagine someone seeing the hero for the first time, as a whole. Do the skills make sense? Are they clear in their function/purpose? Are they natural to use to the normal human player? Is this hero fun for the normal human player? Is it fun for the skilled player? These are key to the quality of the hero, as well as to it's functionality. Once you have these in place, you should be able to form a strong, coherent hero that, if nothing else is a well rounded, fun hero.
I do realise that the skills can be worded better, but I must admit that the purpose and function of the skillset as a whole may not make sense until a few tries.

I do feel that the hero is fun to play with, the challange (for me it's always the challange) being manipulating Marks to the maximum to bring out the maximum in the hero.
TheDeathstalker wrote:Overall, I think the key problem to this hero has to be a lack of a kick, this hero seems to do nothing but stand still and lay bombs that are too oddballish of skills to be pulled off properly or naturally.
TheDeathstalker wrote:A lack of focus. The very first step you should take after you come up with an idea, is to define the role of the hero. This role can be anything, but it needs to be there, and you need to keep it in mind for every skill. Then, you need to identify what key factors are needed to achieve this role, and make sure you stick to those. For an example of this, take a look at my Tortoise, I built it solely on this principle, deciding it needed to be a tank, then keeping in mind what tanks need, Threat and Survivability.
The intention (repeating myself) is to abuse "Mark of an Artist" and "To Draw the Stars" as much as possible whilst under the cover of Oblivion / Shroud of Oblivion. Astral Sign simply helps to enforce for quicker area control rather than a consistant area control.

The hero's role is to play as Area Control by trapping enemies in a web of attacks or as a Disabler to disable enemies for allies. Finally, she fits as a Harresser as well. (althought not as good =/)
TheDeathstalker wrote:The first thing I get from this hero is that it's incredibly... boring, shall I say? One of the skills actually *makes* you immobile, and another is nothing but a short range teleport. While I get that these work together to let you silently lay traps, it just feels too alien, too annoying to do. Tack onto this that you have a AoE Shout Mute, which "should be spammable", and it just feels like the hero is going too many directions. To Draw the Stars also gives this feel, being a confusing, unnatural spell that can work, but doesn't really tie into the other skills in any meaningful way, and, in my op opinion, would really, really need to to be of real use.
Continuing on my previous points, you can set up "To Draw the Stars" then proceed to blow your opponents out of the water with "Mark of an Artist" by multiply spraying them with damage.

Another point I must make is that "Mark of an Artist" does not disappear on usage. (Fairly important) This allows for multiple repetitive movements in a small region, which can quickly lead to abuse of "To Draw the Stars". Oblivion will confuse your opponent and Shroud of Oblivion's (Mark of an Artist is required to abuse this) Cripple quickly turns into a movement nightmare, especially if they are trapped within an area you trapped.
TheDeathstalker wrote:The problems seem to more or less come to a head with the ultimate, as it weakens the other skills only to make them more spammable, but the problem is, one is already spammy, while Mark of an Artist has no real value to be spammed other than being annoying as there is no real easy way to be able to select between 4-5 of these marks to effectively dance (well, it may be doable, but would require extreme skill). So you have an ultimate that really only benefits one other skill while more or ignoring the others, and doing nothing by itself.
The Ultimate works with Shroud of Oblivion (extending Cripple), creating more Marks (More movement, more CD reset when they expire) and more damage out-put (ew?). This quickly leads to a MassMute-Cripple (not a good combination) if executed properly.

Moreover, the Ultimate is Toggeable. You'd only want to use it when you was in direct combat. It's a piece of junk whilst setting traps up.
TheDeathstalker wrote:First and foremost, I'm not sure if you realized, but your hero's name is almost painful to read, Iine and line are damn near identical in this font, which is only made worse by the fact that both show up in one of the skills. It's just an aesthetic nightmare is all, on to the hero itself.
I'll make a note on that for future suggestions.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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Oxygen
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by Oxygen » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:46 pm

sounds like innert's spirit burn

Or skittle's new ultimate. It's a blink that can be used over or undeground. A form of teleport/invis nonetheless, but can't blame you on that, only a few have access to such VIP infos!!!11 =D!

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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by SetaSoujirou » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:58 pm

Evidently, useless innate = big nono. Terrible name. Needlessly spammy. Toggleable skill that increases the power of other skills = horribly abusive. Mute is thrown in too much.
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by LightburneR » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:07 am

SetaSoujirou wrote:Evidently, useless innate = big nono.
The Innate can be used to camp for players, or more ideally, confuse your opponents in combat in additional to Teleportation. At least, that was the main idea.
SetaSoujirou wrote:Terrible name.
>_< Ok ok, I get the point.
SetaSoujirou wrote:Needlessly spammy. Toggleable skill that increases the power of other skills = horribly abusive.
Can't deny that, but it's the style of this hero. *Shrugs*

=/ Isn't an Ultimate supposed to be... well, an Ultimate? Unless I am mistaken, DoE heros are usually suggested to be rigged by concept. (I think I might be wrong)
SetaSoujirou wrote:Mute is thrown in too much.
I was thinking about this earlier today as well. I was thinking that "To Draw the Stars" should either Blind or Burn rather than Mute.

I presonally preferred if it inflicted Burn.
Oxygen wrote:sounds like innert's spirit burn

Or skittle's new ultimate. It's a blink that can be used over or undeground. A form of teleport/invis nonetheless, but can't blame you on that, only a few have access to such VIP infos!!!11 =D!
=/... erm whoops?
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by SetaSoujirou » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:05 pm

It's just shadowmeld without the night time restriction. An innate should actually flow with the hero and serve a purpose. Where you can't really play without it.
Ex. Sozen.
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by LightburneR » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:33 am

SetaSoujirou wrote:It's just shadowmeld without the night time restriction. An innate should actually flow with the hero and serve a purpose. Where you can't really play without it.
Ex. Sozen.
Essentially, every other skill in-game is "just something without/with something else". I tire of that arguement. You've pulled it multiple times already. It's like saying "Sunder is a figure 8 shockwave that returns", "Heavenfall is an immolation that cannot be deactivated", "Strike from Beyond is simply Bash with a condition tacked onto it" etc. etc.

It doesn't prove anything except that the skill is simple enough to break down and reference to another skill. Unless you're asking for infinately complex skills, which I believe happens to be against the concept of DoE.

The Innate serves a purpose. Since her skills are based a fair bit on location, invisiblilty, even one that restricts your movement, is useful.

An imaginary situation is one where you have multiple "Dark Brush Marks" out. Activating Oblivion, (Iine should be ranged) you'd be able to attack, cloak and teleport. Of course, this is a simple situation where you're preventing damage from yourself while chipping away at an enemy.

The another combination would be to abuse Brush Marks to continually place Star Marks, before finally pulling a teleport that puts you out of range of every other Star Mark. In such a situation, you'd have to make use of Oblivion to pull that off.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by SetaSoujirou » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:47 pm

Except when I pull that, the skill doesn't stand out or sound cool in application. Unconditional 2 second fade time immobile invisibility as an innate is lame.
Evidently your poor hero concepts don't help you in an argument either. Nor does either of our biased opinions, but that's life.
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:30 am

LightBurneR wrote:Essentially, every other skill in-game is "just something without/with something else". I tire of that arguement.
Yes, but Seta is correct. Shadowmeld could work as a skill, sure, but as an innate it is utterly and totally terrible. It does nothing to impact the way the hero plays -- I could remove it from your hero and it would work just as well. The interaction you have with it is tame at best and hardly driving of the hero's style. (Refer to Sozen/Ztera for good examples of innates)

Don't get frustrated because people think you've done something wrong. That happens, and getting angry over it makes people want to help you that much less.
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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by LightburneR » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:15 am

SetaSoujirou wrote:Except when I pull that, the skill doesn't stand out or sound cool in application. Unconditional 2 second fade time immobile invisibility as an innate is lame.
You could've just say it was lame, in addition to any other points.

It sounds more neutral. (Yea, I am wrong for over-reacting.)
Rising_Dusk wrote:Yes, but Seta is correct. It does nothing to impact the way the hero plays -- I could remove it from your hero and it would work just as well. The interaction you have with it is tame at best and hardly driving of the hero's style. (Refer to Sozen/Ztera for good examples of innates)
I should avoid Innates as far as possible......
Rising_Dusk wrote:Don't get frustrated because people think you've done something wrong. That happens, and getting angry over it makes people want to help you that much less.
I'm over-sensitive. I've known it for quite a while, but I usually avoid acting out.

So, sorry to Seta.

On a final note:

Scrapping the Innate.
Editing the other skills to suit the above stated change.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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Re: Iine, Nightfall Mistress

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:40 am

LightBurneR wrote:I should avoid Innates as far as possible......
I recommend that to most people, even those who create good heroes on the whole. Innates are tricky business, and I never take them lightly.
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