Flinate, Time's Dark Shadow

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LightburneR
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Flinate, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:28 am

This is my first hero, so please be perfectly honest. I like being told what is wrong with my suggestions and what I have to fix, so do go ahead. I won't mind.

=*=*=*=*=

Flinate,
Time's Dark Shadow

Intelligence; Bane of Eternity

Note: Hopefully the model will be based off the Firelord, with somewhat dark-ish tints.

-----

"You work just like ... clockwerk, like magick......
That copper red fluid, flowing from you
What is it? Is it not pain and suffering?

When time would tell, the clocks may strike;
Time may tick, the Dong may ding.
Will your pain end, my friend?
No; No. It will not.

I am the first of all evils, the purest,
That of time, and time itself. I exsist within the means of a second;
And strike between the twos of infinity.

That which is what it is,
Is struggle that not futile?
Why fight? Two seconds of a tick is all it takes......

A tick.
For two.
Only one...

One can come out.
Alive.

Yet, should it be you,
Yes, should it be you,

Will Time not swing it's deadly blade?

You will fall,
By my hands, By my means
I am immortal. You are not."

-----

Level 1 Skill:
Time Swing (Active)
Delayed Area Damage

  • Marks an area. Units in the area will take X magickal damage after Z seconds.
Cooldown: Perferably somewhere at 7ish seconds
Range: I think about 700ish.
Area of Effect: Increases with level, starts out small before becoming larger.
X is a somewhat moderate damage, somewhere at 100 at lv1 and 200ish when maxed out.
Z is a constant, somewhere at 2-3.
Y is a constant, perhaps somewhere at 2-3, maybe more.

......

Level 1 Skill:
Between the Seconds (Active)
Area and Self Damage, then Area and Self Heal and Condition Extension

  • Inflicts X magickal damage to Flinate and nearby enemies, and after Y seconds, heals Flinate for the damage dealt by this spell.
X should be somewhat large or moderate, perhaps 400ish at lv5?
Y should be a constant, at 5 or so.

......

Level 1 Skill:
Two Ticks (Passive)
Temporal Unit Disable

  • Nearby enemies will be sent forward in time for X seconds if it takes Y or more magickal damage.
Range: Should be 400ish at lv1 and 800ish at lv5
X should be about 0.75s at lv1 and 2s at lv5.
Y should be about 200/300ish.
Z should be increasing with levels, at around 1 initially and 3 when maxed.

......

Level 6 Skill:
Timed Hex (Active)
Single Target Cripple and Delayed Damage

  • A deadly curse is inflicted on the target hero, causing it to suffer from X seconds of Cripple whenever it takes magickal damage, and extending it's duration by Y seconds. After the duration of this spell, the unit takes Z damage for each second this spell lasts.
Cooldown: Possibily somewhere 30ish
Range: Something standard, I'd say 600.
X would be a nice low constant, 1 or less seconds.
Y would be at 1 initially, then increasing to 2.
Z should be 20ish maxing out at 40ish.

......
Last edited by LightburneR on Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:19 am, edited 8 times in total.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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TheDeathstalker
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by TheDeathstalker » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:47 am

Just letting you know, you broke the first rule of hero sugguestions: Format. http://forum.valor-zeal.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=37

Also, I think (may be wrong, but...) you broke the first rule of DoE as well, the only slowing effects in the game are Maim and Cripple, so your ult needs a bit of reworking.

As to the hero itself...

Time Swing: Interesting... actually took a couple read throughs to figure out what you meant, but that may just be me. Honestly, while it is interesting, I think the fact that it only comes into effect if the enemy falls below some health (or ends two ticks) is limiting, not only in the stacking side of things, but also in the fact that there's nothing creative you can do with this skill, it is, in essence, just a point, click, forget spell that you have to remember to fire off every 15 seconds (or whatever the cooldown is). If the skill were somehow more interactive, with more play with the battlefield as a whole and the other heroes, I think it would be more fun. Really, the best example of the workable form of this would be from AotZ's time based hero (And for the 2nd or 3rd time today, I'm blanking on the names, but anyways...) which has a skill that targets an aoe, and after a few seconds, does damage to it. It's simple, but effective. If you can work something like that into the hero, that would be nice. Something that's avoidable if their timing is better than yours, but if you've got the edge, you'll be putting the hurt on them.

Example Idea: Time Bomb: Active Delayed AoE. Deals X damage and extends all conditions currently on damaged units by Y. Damage and extension are done Y seconds after the initial cast. If time bomb is cast again before Y seconds have passed, the first bomb will not activate until Y seconds pass from the second cast. Max number of Time Bombs active at once is Z. X and Z increase with level.

Something like that... anyways...

Two Ticks: Ok, well, shit... with the idea I just mentioned, this doesn't work, but that's not the issue at hand (thankfully). So what we're talking here is in essence a specialized version of the spell that makes units ethreal... um... ok? I mean, it's interesting, I'll give it that, but there's no magic to it... where's the life, the creativity? All you're doing is holding something in place so that you can... poke at it. No, this hero (at least the poem-y thing) has too much life to have a spell that causes you and your opponent to just take turns standing there. If you want an ability to be fun with something like this, why not make it so you have a skill that (hopefully without channeling) tosses a unit "forward in time" a few seconds (heh, for fun, make it two seconds, you know... two ticks?, and just have the cooldown decrease with level to the point where you can have fun with it, really disrupting the flow of other heroes by making them disappear randomly during battle?). It's an idea, at least.

Dark Claws: I've been there, hell, we've all been there, when there just isn't another skill you can think of to round the hero out. It happens. However, the third skill is kinda the breaking point for heroes. Either everything works or you're left with almost a hero, something that works in a loose sense, but never really gets a life to it. If you're looking for something that gives you good condition interaction and keeps the theme of the hero, why not look to the past? Time control is as much about the present and future as it is the past, so make use of it. Here's an idea:

Through the Never (passive):
Every time Slift uses a skill or kills a unit(?), a nodule in the timeflow is created. Whenever he takes a total of X% damage, he is returned to the last nodule with that health restored. Can have a max of Y nodules. Also, the nodules are visible as a small dark cloud/rift in spacetime.

Needs work, but at least it's got something to it. (actually, I just realized I've kinda neutered this guy, as right now he has one attacking spell... meh, such things can be dealt with later, such as making Through the Never deal X% damage to the unit that triggers it or something...) Anyways...

Strike of Infinity: I think i already mentioned the main problem with this one, the lack of stackable slows in DoE. I don't quite see much in the way of changing this... However, the skill itself shows promise. It just needs to be properly brought to DoE, so let's see what we can do. First and foremost, we want it to Cripple, and we want it to deal damage based on how long they've been under the effects... that's doable. Let's see....

Strike of Infinity (Channeled):
After X(1-2) seconds Cripples all units in an AoE for Y seconds. Then begins to apply randomly the other 6 conditions for Y seconds, until all are applied (applies a new one every Z(2/1.5/1?) seconds). Once a unit has all seven conditions, it is dealt Z damage. Lasts just long enough to take a non-conditioned unit to having all 7.

Meh, seems a bit much and a bit wonky, but with cleaning up it may be worth something? I'm sure you can work something better to be honest, but i'm just throwing it out there anyways.

Overall (although it may be hard to tell from all the above), nice hero. There are a few things here and there that you'll get used to with DoE such as the way conditions interact and the lack of anything but conditions, but you show promise. Hope to see more of your stuff here (but don't expect so long of reviews... i'm just up late because I was supposed to be observing 9 Metis tonight, but it was too cloudy).
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

LightburneR
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Posts: 169
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:31 pm

Ok, I will edit it into a suitable format and with at least a skill-set that would be more suited.

Edit: I took up your suggestion on the "Time Bomb"ish skill. I re-made Timg Swing into a skill that is not entirely reliant on health, or another skill but rather looks for an easy to activate condition.

"Two Ticks", was kept much to it's original form but I removed the "channelly" from it. It is now a buff that displaces based on damage. (I really dislike mass displacements)

"Dark Claws" was something I initially had as a filler until I thought of something better. I remade it into "Between the Seconds" which somewhat follows what you described with "travelling back in time" but instead of a time travel + heal, it is a time travel + damage. (More like a Space Travel but you get the point)

"Strike of Infinity", I took up your suggestion with multiple condition infliction but I removed the "random conditions" because I hate luck-based things (Luck never was with me when I needed it) and it is now based on an Order with Mute as the last (=/, for obvious reasons >_<) and simply damages all units in the area based on the number of conditions they are afflicted with.

Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate your long and well-thought out reply. ^^

Oh and it should be in the appropriate format now.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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TheDeathstalker
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by TheDeathstalker » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:12 pm

I think you missed part of the intent of my post. The idea behind the skills I suggested was to keep the hero active in play, and thus, fun. The new Time Shift doesn't really seem to get that done, as it just rigs an area to explode, then relies on him entering the area for it to take effect. I dunno, for some reason that just feels... sluggish or unintuitive for me. To set a trap that trips when you enter it? Not much of a trap eh? I know it works with the new third skill, but even that I kinda don't know about. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

Between the Seconds: First off "Active" and "Whenever Slift damages a unit" are a bit of a contradiction, so that needs clearing up. Either way though, this skill ends up as a blink strike, on a caster hero, which is the first sign something is wrong. The second sign is you just teleported to an enemy and ruined yourself (yes, and him, but again, you're a caster, wtf are you doing in melee range while ruined?). The third sign is that you deal damage to yourself equal to the damage you just took. So say you blink to a hero, he does half your health while you do maybe a third, at most. You teleport back, killing yourself and moderately damaging him. That's not good dude... not good at all.
Another issue with the skill is that if it depends on how much you get hurt, and then deals that to you, having a non-static duration makes this skill a liability at higher levels.

Thinking more on the hero, none of the skills seem to really synergize with each other, the only combo there is is Time Shift + Between the Seconds, but that does little more than taking a step forward would. You know, I really like the feel, or at least the concept of the feel of the hero, but these two changes seem to be a step both in the right and wrong direction. The skills need to feed off of eachother, really work together to achieve something greater than just what you've got here.

Oh, also, the new two ticks is better than the last one, but I don't quite think it's there yet. How about something like this:

Two Ticks (Active):
Debuffs a unit, whenever that unit takes more than X magickal damage, it is "pushed forward" A(static, 1 or 2) seconds and the duration of it's conditions are renewed.

or, alternatively (and probably better)

Two Ticks (Passive):
Whenever a nearby unit takes more than X magickal damage, it is "pushed forward" A(static 1 or 2) seconds and the duration of it's conditions are renewed.

Remember, elegance is the goal in DoE, so if ever you think the hero is "a very complex character to play", then something's off.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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SetaSoujirou
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by SetaSoujirou » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:33 pm

Just glancing at the hero skills. Way too much reading. Honestly, DoE is meant to be simple. I don't see any real USE of conditions being placed on his enemies/himself. And the hero's name is like. Not really epic, and a dead give away.
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by Phox » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:40 pm

The skills are all long and difficult to comprehend. As Seta said, DoE is supposed to be simple; If you can't state what a skill does in three lines or so (not including explanatory notes, examples, etc.)

LightburneR
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:50 am

Edit: I tweaked Time Swing so it plays more of an active part in combat.

Two Ticks is now a passive that triggers on nearby enemies whenever a fixed amount of magickal damage is taken by enemies.

Between the Seconds is changed to a teleport/heal/condition extension. (Perhaps Area Damage instead of condition extension?)

And massively reduced text length.
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

LightburneR
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Re: Slift, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:05 am

Edit (Once more =/)
  • Time Swing Ruins enemies and gains AoE for each level.
    Two Ticks Cripples and Maims when the unit returns.
    Between the Seconds re-worked into an Area Damage (Much like Dahaka's Revolution) that damages himself and enemies but restores the damage it deals later, oh and, it extends conditions too.
    Strike of Infinity is now entirely based-off Cripple.
I'm thinking of a better name. Slift doesn't exactly sound anything... "time-y". Edit: His name has been changed to... Tickus.

Comments/Suggestions?
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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TheDeathstalker
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Re: Tickus, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by TheDeathstalker » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:58 am

Tickus is... bad... I mean... like... that's like naming a fire mage Infernus (well, actually that works, but you get my point, hopefully...).

As to the current state of the hero... you're still missing synergy. Yes, the hero kinda... kinda feels like a time based hero, but it has no real character. The skills are all over the place. I mean really, there's nothing that really ties this hero together. That, I believe, is the key weakness of all your heroes (well, that, and the lack of character, but the two go hand in hand, trust me). You've got the first spell which is aoe damage + ruin under some arbitrary constraint (time isn't influenced by position, so there's no reason Time Shift should trigger when he enters, not to mention it's a fairly uneventful trigger, no real skill to it, just walk). Between the seconds has just gotten weird, and is now completely useless save for finishing off weak creeps that you can nuke anyways, not to mention a dot spell will never trigger Two Ticks, so that's an entire line of stuff to do cut off. Two Ticks really shouldn't maim and cripple... it's enough that you're blinking them forward in time, no need to muck with them more unless there's... a meaning to it. The ult working solely off of cripple is fine, but then you've gotta ask yourself why make it matter based on length of cripple when that's the only skill that actively applies cripple (yes, Two Ticks does too, but that's only if you manage to time a combo of Time Shift -> Two Ticks -> Ult finishing, which, even if you get it right, adds a whole two or three seconds to the damage, probably offset by the fact that they don't gain cripple while Two Ticks is messing with them.

Now, I know what I suggested earlier needs polishing, but at the very least (if i'm recalling right) the skills work together, the ult applies all conditions, then Two Ticks (the aura one or the active cast) will have displaced them long enough to allow you to lay a Time Bomb to extend those conditions. Alternately, you can play with the Time Bombs to set up a large explosion while Through the Never keeps you alive and in combat long enough to set it all up. Other than that, Through the Never doesn't synergize, but it keeps you alive, so that's allowable so long as the others work together.

Synergy is the magic word for DoE, if you make a beautiful synergy between... well, all the skills preferably (look back to some other threads, they are where you'll learn how to do this) and to do it without making it "forced", contrived, simple, or useless, that's what makes a strong hero. Now, I keep harping on the "character" side of it, if you have a neat and interesting way in which all the skills work together (take Kassar for example), the character of the hero forms out of that.

And I'm going to stop before I keep rambling forever. By the way, no need to update these heroes once every 20 minutes, most of us miss half your updates at least, so cool the pace, let the abilities and such marinate in your mind for a while til you've got a clear picture of how the unit works in combat and how all the skills work together.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

LightburneR
Holder of the Alt-F4
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:43 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Tickus, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:39 am

I'll do something again about the name.

I get your point about editing too fast (Now I'm typing too fast), but I'm a >_> "hyper-active 1337 speaking random person", but yea, brainstorm first, type later. Point Taken.

I think about.....

Time Swing
Deals damage in Area and extends conditions after X seconds.

Two Ticks
Current Effect, but remove the Maim/Cripple and give it a condition extension for the entire duration it displaces (EG Displacement for X seconds, then it extends the condition by X seconds, so it doesn't counteract conditions)

Between the Seconds
Hm, perhaps it inflicts Ruin on Tickus (Or whatever his new name will be, Gliunkz Darak?) then extends conditions on him and nearby units for X seconds (Instead of damage) and then, based on the duration of the conditions extended, inflicts magickal damage (to enemies)?? (Probably lowish damage)

Strike of Infinity
Er... no change?
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

LightburneR
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Re: Flinate, Time's Dark Shadow

Post by LightburneR » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:24 am

Changes have been made, and I think the most obvious would be his name. (Flinate)

Time Swing is basically a direct copy of Dhaka's Time Shatter (AotZ) now.

Between the Seconds blasts an area with damage, then restores Flinate's health later. (Used with Two Ticks, the nasty-side effect would be negated, since you would regain that health already)

Two Ticks is basically the same as the original. (Which works perfect with Time Swing for a nice double disable, ouch.)

Strike of Infinity was changed to Timed Hex, which triggers whenever the target takes magickal damage and cripples it, as well as extending the duration of the Hex, and when it ends, it deals damage based on the duration of the entire hex. (Should have the damage from Time Swing and Between the Seconds to work with, and unfortunately, other Bane heros)

Basically he is an amplifier of magickal damage, turning him into a blend of a Hero Killer and a Disabler of sorts. (Something I had in mind when I initially made him, but unfortunately, turned him all over the place)
Its... its... a NEW SIG!! OMG!!

O_O"

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