And yet another review

This is where all bug reports or hero complaints regarding DoE should be made. Whether you have an issue with balance or an exploit to shed light on, this is the place to put it.
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Phox » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:02 pm

Flameboy wrote:But sure, you have the choice. Its your map, and I don't know if you noticed, but I have many people refusing to play 1.09 because of the major balance issues.
And I'm sure the big ones will be fixed. Have patience. But people aren't refusing to play because of things like Glyphe's movespeed being slower then they'd like or Rose (who is fine as is) not being able to cause 5 conditions. It's because of Jhita, but that's a topic that has already been beaten to death.

Most of these issues had already been pointed out, anyway.

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:12 pm

Flameboy wrote:I personally see his post as the perfect balance report, as you don't need to read 8 lines on every issue he has to report. Imagine if he'd write a whole ''I think this is imba, because, so we could, or maybe this, etc'' on everything. Imo, this was just to point out the issues that appeared very obvious to us so they could be fixed.
Actually, I'd have liked that. Maybe then I'd feel like a person after reading it or something. :(
Phox' post is correct in all points as well.

I hate it when people go "It's your map, don't listen to my balance complaints if you don't want to" when I clearly do. The point I've already laid out, though, is that I'd like to have things explained to me, not just be told "X is Y, do Z." That's inhuman, and like I said, I'm not a machine. Besides, all of the things of note have been reported a hundred or so times so far, and some suggestions were a bit ridiculous.
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Oxygen » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:42 pm

Oh dusky... I was just trying to quickly review and get done with, I tried a different approach ( emotionless ) and it was late, but I felt like I HAD to do it, I really did. If the stuff I wrote up there isn't changed, too bad. But if it can make you barely think about anything then it's totally had its usefulness

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Flameboy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:27 pm

But one of the things i really agreed with was a small ms buff on Kassar.
While playing him I only noticed how I could not catch a genobee, so therefore, I could not kill him. Comparing him to the other slow heroes...Genobee is a tank. Tanks aren't made to be quick they're made to take the damage. Same goes for dag. Now the next slow hero could be glyphe. But glyphe has a cripple. Glyphe has his aura hitting from far. Kassar's skills are all melee/very close range. At low level, his movespeed skill is negligeable imo. At later levels its fine.

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Phox » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:57 pm

Um... Kassar has plenty of stuff to catch people with. He doesn't need stupendous movespeed.

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Re: And yet another review

Post by SetaSoujirou » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:11 pm

Flameboy wrote:But one of the things i really agreed with was a small ms buff on Kassar.
While playing him I only noticed how I could not catch a genobee, so therefore, I could not kill him. Comparing him to the other slow heroes...Genobee is a tank. Tanks aren't made to be quick they're made to take the damage. Same goes for dag. Now the next slow hero could be glyphe. But glyphe has a cripple. Glyphe has his aura hitting from far. Kassar's skills are all melee/very close range. At low level, his movespeed skill is negligeable imo. At later levels its fine.
Boots? Blink? There are TONS of ways to catch up to people, and with a 2-3 sec KD x 2, (depending on items) there should be no problem...
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Oxygen » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:18 pm

SetaSoujirou wrote:
Flameboy wrote:But one of the things i really agreed with was a small ms buff on Kassar.
While playing him I only noticed how I could not catch a genobee, so therefore, I could not kill him. Comparing him to the other slow heroes...Genobee is a tank. Tanks aren't made to be quick they're made to take the damage. Same goes for dag. Now the next slow hero could be glyphe. But glyphe has a cripple. Glyphe has his aura hitting from far. Kassar's skills are all melee/very close range. At low level, his movespeed skill is negligeable imo. At later levels its fine.
Boots? Blink? There are TONS of ways to catch up to people, and with a 2-3 sec KD x 2, (depending on items) there should be no problem...
Heroes should be viable to play with any item set, even though some might be more effective. But for kassar, nothing reall beats boots. And he's even pretty dependant on them, at least, much more than anybody else.

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:32 pm

That's so untrue it isn't even funny, Oxy.
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Re: And yet another review

Post by SetaSoujirou » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:17 am

Oxy, you do realize that there are more is more than one way to play Kassar, right? Besides, you only think that because you mass boots and don't realize the potential of other items. (At least I learned from playing Dis)
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Hell_Tempest » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:25 am

Kassar is all about catching people with their pants down...you don't need mass boots for that.
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Oxygen » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:26 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:That's so untrue it isn't even funny, Oxy.
Ok, there's something I probably didn't understand here. Let me show you my logic.

+ damage for kassar? He's blind most of the time.
Same thing for attack speed, and unless firebrand/drakescale procc while he's blind, it's no good.
Mana? Maybe, if you can't conserve. I know I can.
Mana regen? Out of question, kassar's intelligence is one of a rabbit.
+Str? If you die too much, but the damage is useless.
+Agi? Weird choice.
+Int? Same as mana.
Regen? Maybe if you die too much.
Boots? Absolutely, they allow you to catch people with your spells, especially before you gain a high level sandshark. That's invaluable compared to every other non-faction items. Even with the minus 2 armor.

For the faction item, Kassar is rather lucky with this patch, and has more choice than let's say, sozen.

Firebrand, I don't know if it still proccs with blind. It's good for prevailing winds, too bad its bugged.
Drakescale works great with firebrand, as well as any spells, and obviously is great for triggering winds.
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SetaSoujirou wrote:Oxy, you do realize that there are more is more than one way to play Kassar, right? Besides, you only think that because you mass boots and don't realize the potential of other items. (At least I learned from playing Dis)
Dis has shares similar needs with kassar. Except you've probably realized that I massed 6 boots on purpose and pooled you factions. Hell, I know that firebrand works great with his ultimate. I know every little nifty combos that dusk tried to put in here, I realize it all. I just don't do it because that's what I chose to do. But no matter what, a pair of boots will be more useful to kassar than +2 agility, dead end.
Hell_Tempest wrote:Kassar is all about catching people with their pants down...you don't need mass boots for that.
So is sozen, so is caliga, so is dagur, so is anick. Ever been fireballed by arro out of the fog for 450 damage? We could say that for all heroes. Kassar's a real slug, and has no ranged ability whatshowever, like his other rock bottom speed tier counterparts, glyphe, geno or dagur

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:58 am

Oxygen wrote:I just don't do it because that's what I chose to do. But no matter what, a pair of boots will be more useful to kassar than +2 agility, dead end.
No shit?

I always get regeneration on Kassar and then get things that reduce the damage he takes. That way he can take so many conditions at once and keep surviving. You're very wrong that regen/str/+1 all stats are only for builds that you use when you "die a lot" because all of those help prevent you from dying in the first place. They also help you hurt, and last I checked you aren't forced to keep Fasset on all of the time -- I only ever use it when chasing and running alongside them, not when standing still and fighting. (Duh?)

You could also use the build that renders you immune to blind and focus entirely on attack power, since that AOE ruin is pretty devastating then. Of course, you didn't consider that item build, since boots are the only logical choice in the 200g items for you. Maybe you can use the build of Last Rites + Sanctuary + Regen, since that works quite well at sustaining you as well. Even if you exclude the faction items entirely, I think I only ever get 2 boots tops on Kassar (For the same reason I do it on Sozen). Any more than that and I'd rather have positive armor and some regeneration or strength for extra life/damage.

What pisses me off about your attitude, Oxy (And you do have one, just look at your last post), is that you think that the way you play is the only good one that exists. I can match your top games with any of the heroes using any build I damned well please. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it's the only God damned build available to a hero. Ever.
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Oxygen » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:49 pm

Realize that everything he's done has almost always been so succesful to him, how can he remotely see the potential of a totally different strategy now? How can the elitist see beyond the horizon when everything he's ever needed were steps behind him?

The item changes really hurt me dusk, I always did the same thing, and now, the new stuff seems all so illogical for heroes like rikter, sozen or caliga or so where all you had to do was to stack the right thing

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Re: And yet another review

Post by Hell_Tempest » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:03 pm

God forbid there should be a bit of intelligence behind item choices...
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Re: And yet another review

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:01 pm

Oxygen wrote:Realize that everything he's done has almost always been so succesful to him, how can he remotely see the potential of a totally different strategy now? How can the elitist see beyond the horizon when everything he's ever needed were steps behind him?
I am disinterested in your ad hominem approach to discourse, but if you insist on this manner of speaking I will respond in kind. If I could not "remotely see the potential of a totally different strategy" I would not be saying that there are dozens of builds that work in dozens of different situations for dozens of different people. Simply by virtue of calling me narrow minded in your own words you've negated your own argument as I've been preaching variety and versatility in item build designs from the beginning. That's unfortunate.

Now if you'd like to explain your point of view rather than argue incessantly for no valid reason, you're welcome to.
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