Meridia

[Separation]

I am actually for the random conditions on the arrows. I feel that it is nice idea that could work and add versatility to Meridia. As stated earlier, if you are in a bad situation and hope for cripple or blind and you get bleed or burn: mute won't always save you either. If it's a multiple person gank or something, mute especially won't always save you. I think random conditions would buff her more as a hero.

And if Meridia just goes the "movement speed attack speed right click" build, she will most likely fail. You should use all of the abilities at the hero's disposal, same thing with Jhita. Although massive attack speed is nice, I for one wouldn't just auto activate Stiffling Arrows and hope to kill something. Her role isn't to do that. I guess it's all how the player uses the hero, and how good and bad the results are. But that goes for everything, so that goes without saying.

If Meridia's other spells (like KoD being only 20 mana) 20 or 40 mana for Stiffling Arrows won't be a problem, because she will most likely have a lot left over or some to spare. I also think you guys are underestimating random bleed or burn, it can be used to harass heroes or finish off a hero you're chasing or something (if you inflict it, that is).

One last thing, you should never rely your survivability on chance. You shouldn't charge into a group of enemies with Rikter and hope that you'll get a bunch of crits and walk out with 10 hp (or if I'm being chased, I don't expect to kill the heroes with crits). Same with Atrius, you shouldn't go in with 10% hp and just think you'll permabash someone and walk away. So I 100% would not expect Stiffling Arrows inflicting random conditions to save me all the time, as I stated earlier, the default mute doesn't always save you. If you die, you probably got yourself into a silly situation in the first place anyway.

But that being said, while I would not rely on the arrows to simply save me or kill a hero I'm chasing, I would use them for many other purposes.

An ability that can cause random conditions seems against DoE's condition system.

Can you explain further? I'm having trouble making sense of that. The system and it's buffs are not being changed, a spell is.

Anyway, sorry for text wall, first post and all.

[Rising_Dusk]

None said you couldn't have them extend if you had the same one twice 8D

I did, because then creating infinite cripples, mutes, ruins, or whatever is too easy to do. (Remember crown)

As stated earlier, if you are in a bad situation and hope for cripple or blind and you get bleed or burn: mute won't always save you either.

But at least the mute is reliable, so you know what you're paying for.

I also think you guys are underestimating random bleed or burn, it can be used to harass heroes or finish off a hero you're chasing or something (if you inflict it, that is).

All of which would be valid points, except for the fact that you cannot rely on applying them when you need to, thus you cannot use the random condition as a means to "finish people off" or "harass."

Can you explain further?

It's not against DoE's condition system, I just really don't think it'll be nearly as great as the "for"s are making it sound.

[Nowaki]

I think Dusk's tweaks for the next patch are good enough.

I just secretly wish Gravenova was a little less mana costy, costing around 60~70 mana. Meridia has a very small mana pool compared to other INT heros, and she rellies alot on having corpses at disposal to use the skills — Kiss of Death is pretty much the 'essence' spell of her — and you will be getting no corpses at your disposal if you do not control the creepwaves and be constantly pushed back to defense.

While Meridia is a good harassing hero early game, you lose effectiveness as the game goes on and your enemies get stronger. You'll find yourself casting 3~4+ skeletons buffed with Gravenova (100ish+ mana each) to kill creepwaves against heros like Arro, Stille, Aurea, Parh, Dis, Sozen, Fahren, (...) — some Order heroes will be able to nail your creep wave without spending half of the mana you did.

If you keep the constant flux of gravenovas coming, you'll have bodies at your disposal, but that'll dry your mana pool so fast you'll be running to your fountain before you reach your enemy base. And, if your opponent gets a big wave incoming at you, you'll have a tough time defending, as you won't have corpses when the opponent arrives.

Whatever happens to her, Meri.

[Rising_Dusk]

Everyone seems to negate the usefulness of Beyond the Grave in all aspects of her playstyle. At max hero level, Beyond the Grave will let skeletons hit enemy heroes in 1v1 and never die.

[Oxygen]

Everyone seems to negate the usefulness of Beyond the Grave in all aspects of her playstyle. At max hero level, Beyond the Grave will let skeletons hit enemy heroes in 1v1 and never die.

Who fights skeletons if they have grave nova on them?

[Rising_Dusk]

Isn't that the best kind of skill dichotomy? Either you end them early so they don't smack you at the cost of an early explosion, or you tank it and hope to escape the explosion. That's the entire beauty of it.

[Oxygen]

Isn't that the best kind of skill dichotomy? Either you end them early so they don't smack you at the cost of an early explosion, or you tank it and hope to escape the explosion. That's the entire beauty of it.

amazing on paper, you're right

[Nowaki]

Everyone seems to negate the usefulness of Beyond the Grave in all aspects of her playstyle. At max hero level, Beyond the Grave will let skeletons hit enemy heroes in 1v1 and never die.

It's good on theory, but while some heroes can just blow the skeletons away easily like Sozen, Glyphé and Kassar, the rest can just chose not to fight the skeletons, and they'll die/expire as they chase.

Genobee can "work with his army" alot easier than Meridia, mainly because it's hard to keep a reliable amount of skeletons by your side: the skeletons lasts only 30 seconds. Many times I've seen my army expires while I am chasing or trying to block someone.

[Rising_Dusk]

amazing on paper, you're right

Prior to the nerf, worked great in practice too. It was kind of unfortunate that I was the only person to use it at all, though.

[TwilightDreamer]

I must say I've never used Beyond the Grave when playing Merida.
Like. Ever. >.<

I just didn't see the point in having such minuscule lifesteal on skeletons that die usually in a couple of seconds anyways - especially at the expense of my precious mana.

[pandamanar]

Agreed. I've never used Beyond the Grave. It just seems pointless to try to sustain a summon whose job is to die, and who lasts 30 seconds anyway...

[Oxygen]

Agreed. I've never used Beyond the Grave. It just seems pointless to try to sustain a summon whose job is to die, and who lasts 30 seconds anyway...

Who gave you access to my personal diary? I'd use the spell if it was anick-type life leech (where the life leeched is also lost) PER conditions on the target, which would amazingly synergize with a certain new stiffling arrows... ehehe...

[Rising_Dusk]

The point is to make them less killable in the timeframe that they are alive, allowing them to actually do some damage on their own. They die, they explode, they live, they own someone. I can't believe no one understands the logic of "It hurts someone really, really fast with their ridiculous attack speed and then they die and hurt even more." You're not trying to keep them alive, you're making them more deadly and more present while they are alive. You still cast GNova on them and still want them to die.

I'd use the spell if it was anick-type life leech (where the life leeched is also lost)

It IS!

It is life drain, which results in healing. Basically, X life is removed from the struck foe and added to your own life.

And dude --

PER conditions on the target, which would amazingly synergize with a certain new stiffling arrows... ehehe...

News flash: you're not clever. I thought of that too, and discarded it because 4 skeletons stealing 50 life per attack per 1/3 second doesn't interest me as a person who also has to consider balance. It already steals plenty.

[Oxygen]

News flash: you're not clever. I thought of that too, and discarded it because 4 skeletons stealing 50 life per attack per 1/3 second doesn't interest me as a person who also has to consider balance. It already steals plenty.

I was merely restating your own theorycrafting back when you were babbling about meridia in the channel a year ago. Of course it isn't "clever". I just find sad that you ditched such a sweet double synergy because of a moment of blurred vision of doe's reality. It's not often that you get one skeleton, let alone any more, beating on a hero for an extended (3 seconds or more) period of time, making your entire logic concerning the amazing damage that the combo would provide flawed. And as you have shown last patch, numbers can always be tweaked if something feels too strong.

I'm done talking about meridia forever, I gave my ideas and explained my points, it's your map, do whatever, I just think you're passing on a real nice concept with not randomizing stiffling arrows and btg's current incarnation

[2-P]

I used Beyond the Grave, just not very often. There were a few base sieging situations (no enemy aoe dude who instantly tears your skeletons apart) where it was pretty damn awesome. It's just that I have it turned off like... 95% of the time because it never appeared very useful to me outside of base attacking situations. If you keep it on during the push you end up without mana when you actually reach the enemie's base.

Anyway, waiting for the next version. I want to try a no-grave nova mery a few times and if beyond the grave still bothers me I'll let you know. ^^