Melee heroes and you

[Phox]

Would the kit be usable more then once? On a single item I mean.

[Merlin]

Alright, sounds like you've made your choice. I just wanted to make sure you understood how it's very different from your previous item philosophy. Items that have limited impact on a hero, versus items that define a hero.

If you're going to go this route, I suggest something analogous to ToB's socketing system, except with 'magical oils' purchasable at the potion shops. Something you buy, click on, and using a single target crosshair, click on the item you wish to upgrade. Seems like the most elegant way to do it to me.

[Fulla]

Ah yea magical oils could be very cool & would also beef out the potions shop slightly.

@ Merlin, I don't think the bonuses would be quite strong enough to define a Hero, although getting borderline.

[Rising_Dusk]

Pigger is correct, that's exactly how it would work.

Would the kit be usable more then once? On a single item I mean.

No, one upgrade per item.

On another note I really wish you could do something with your gold other than purchasing creeps.
Personally I'd prefer the blacksmith to be simple gold as opposed to faction but making it pretty expensive, say 500-1000 gold to double a base items strength (only works once). Would add a nice alternative to spend your gold.

Maybe I'll make them cost 400g and 3F then. Regardless, gold is intended for creeps whereas faction for items. It's just a swapped role style that I designed DoE for, really, it's not bad or scary or whatever. :p

Alright, sounds like you've made your choice. I just wanted to make sure you understood how it's very different from your previous item philosophy. Items that have limited impact on a hero, versus items that define a hero.

I don't see how this changes anything at all. Anything this will allow will do nothing to change what was already in DoE in 1.08. We're talking a +4 INT item or a +20% attack speed item. That's it, not like +30 AGI or something retarded. This isn't changing the philosophy at all, it's just picking the best of both worlds (1.08 style and 1.09 style) and melding them together.

[Merlin]

I see, I was under the impression this might lead to +10 items with numerous upgrades. I have no problem with a moderated upgrade system.

[assassingao]

Wait for me, +120% attackspeed Caliga, here I come!

(It's much better than 6 Firebrand, which costs 48 factions and burns himself on attack.)


Ok, item issues solved, then. But which shop would you put the item upgrades in?

EDIT: Apparently, I have failed at math, gosh.

[Phox]

But which shop would you put the item upgrades in?

Potions shop. Been said about 10 times. =P

[Rising_Dusk]

Yeah, the potions shop, bottom left corner of the shop.

[Fulla]

Maybe I'll make them cost 400g and 3F then. Regardless, gold is intended for creeps whereas faction for items. It's just a swapped role style that I designed DoE for, really, it's not bad or scary or whatever. :p

Yea I see what you mean, but some games quite early on you can easily end up with say 1k gold and little to no faction.
Like say the Heroes in your lane are playing very defensively, meanwhile other lanes are getting all the kills

I think it would be nice if you could invest in a few stronger items, for later on with just simple gold & as an alternative to buying creeps pushing a lane.
All in all its just another option/tactic/possibility to spend gold which is great.

But it would obviously have to be priced just right, 600 gold I think sounds pretty decent.
So for a full +24 strength, you'd need a full 4800 gold.

[Oxygen]

Yea I see what you mean, but some games quite early on you can easily end up with say 1k gold and little to no faction.
Like say the Heroes in your lane are playing very defensively, meanwhile other lanes are getting all the kills

Then feel free to leave your lane and claim some assists : )! also, you can just grab the only-gold-costing items until you get enough faction to upgrade them

I think it would be nice if you could invest in a few stronger items, for later on with just simple gold & as an alternative to buying creeps pushing a lane.
All in all its just another option/tactic/possibility to spend gold which is great.

Those stronger items are already there, they cost 8 faction each!

But it would obviously have to be priced just right, 600 gold I think sounds pretty decent.
So for a full +24 strength, you'd need a full 4800 gold.

If the best items in game only costed gold, I wouldn't do half as much hero killing as I currently am; faction is a way to award behavior that makes the game progress. No wonder dusk added them to towers and buildings

Wait for me, +120% attackspeed Caliga, here I come!

(It's much better than 6 Firebrand, which costs 36 factions and burns himself on attack.)

I had that in mind; but 6*8 = 48, I'm pretty sure! That's the major problem I wanted to avoid here with this item suggestion; to pimp out caliga, you needed so many factions, it was clearly out of range for most games and heroes. With the comeback of older items, and *only* 3f each, now we're talking!

[Daryll-The-Damned]

Ok, lemme put my 2 cents in.

While I'm not opposed to this upgrade system, as I'm sure Dusk will find a way to make it all fine and dandy, I have to say I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about.

But please, Caliga wants to cut shit again, Rikter wants to crit really hard again, Atrius wants to stunlock again, Sozen wants to discharge all over again, and Vela, well... : \

Now, just putting aside that melodramatic tone lol. Caliga is still the voidwalking badass that rape's everyone, Atrius still stunlocks, Sozen still has his discharge goodness and I don't even see what problem Vela has.

Just now, Caliga is more focused on the chase(well he always was, but now more so with none of that uber-attack speed), Sozen has to just be a little more careful with the discharge, and Atrius...well I mean, Firebrand gives him a guaranteed 50% to stun? And 20% attack speed? Sure it burns him but so freaking what, get the fire reducer, or use a potion while yer freaking invisible, I mean that's his playstyle right?

All I'm saying is, in my opinion the items right now are fine...Except for a few things like Sanctuary(25% reduction on only one condition IS a tad much) Whatever, that's all I got to say.

[Scarlet]

Honestly, Surdan, he's right. A lot of the older heroes are just not as good with the advent of .09, as it saw a lot of maim and blind being added into the mix, on top of other things - namely, the defensive nature of most of the new items. Atrius is one of the few attack-heavy heroes that hasn't been hit that hard, but Sozen, Caliga and Anick just aren't as good when people are running around with 25% physical damage reduction on top of their armor.

Point is, not very many of the new items support just straight-up attacking, which is what quite a few heroes rely on. Rikter's is decent, but is nowhere near in power proportionally compared to Sanctuary, Drakescale or the Optic Amulet, and Firebrand is almost a joke on certain heroes. Sure, the two of them work very well together, but come on - 16 faction for +20% attack speed and +22 damage? No thanks. Firebrand benefits heroes like Dis, Dagurnott and to a lesser extent Kassar far more than any of the previously mentioned heroes.

I personally feel something along the lines of what Dusk suggested would be perfect, only I'd prefer if stuff like the Petrified Heart and Phoenix Stone were replaced for 8 faction items with that style and feel in mind. The kit upgrades sound like neat stuff, by the by; would be nice to see them in practice, as I'm unsure just how much they'd change things.

[Rising_Dusk]

I personally feel something along the lines of what Dusk suggested would be perfect, only I'd prefer if stuff like the Petrified Heart and Phoenix Stone were replaced for 8 faction items with that style and feel in mind. The kit upgrades sound like neat stuff, by the by; would be nice to see them in practice, as I'm unsure just how much they'd change things.

So you're suggesting eliminating the 3F items altogether and replace all 8 of them with actual 8F items that are offensive or something?

[TheIrishPatriot]

All sounds cool to me.

[Scarlet]

So you're suggesting eliminating the 3F items altogether and replace all 8 of them with actual 8F items that are offensive or something?

Nah, not necessarily, I just don't think bleed and burn warrant a slot. By themselves they don't have a big enough impact on the game to be worth it, especially not if there's good ideas floating around out there for offensive items.