Questions on Ruin

[Rectifier]

Yeah I meant to put a not in the first part of the post, editing that now for fixage.

As for the second part, why should Dusk waste time on adjusting the two damage variables to create the same outcome as one single damage variable?

Here's a hint why not, its annoying and time consuming.

[trendkill]

Probably because it *isn't* the same outcome.

Sigh.. nevermind.

[Hell_Tempest]

Making them inflict two types of damage would change the way a hero is played, though.

[Rising_Dusk]

I see no reason why some abilities should not use both damage types, however, it would just be a waste of time for the coders to add a very small (mostly aesthetic) difference in damage.

It's hardly just aesthetic, though, and as a matter of fact it's a big aspect of the map. The thing is, though, that skills are meant to be one way or another for a good reason; being both magickal and physical makes the spell bypass immunities or resistances to one or another. This way certain heroes have benefits against others and so forth. Not to mention, a big aspect of it is that Ruin makes physical spells deal more damage. (Hellloooo, Genobee!)

I think the differentiation between physical and magickal is the entire reason for making it that way. I mean, imagine Pokemon where you have a spell that deals both grass and poison damage at once (These don't exist for the same reasons I listed above), it would be ridiculous.

And I wouldn't make a spell deal both since that would just confuse people. I mean, 75 physical and 75 magickal damage is just weird and would make the tooltips look funny. It's far more intuitive to just have it one way and let the imagination go at it. Logically, everything would have to be a mix of physical/magickal, but it just can't be mechanically.

I said that for a reason, I think it's genuinely true. If we wanted to really get detailed about it, every spell should be both magickal and physical. Genobee's bugs should do physical damage for popping out and magickal for the blood splatter; but if everything deals both then it makes no design sense to differentiate them at all. The entire reason for making physical and magickal dynamically adaptive in terms of the map is so they are different and mutually exclusive. Hopefully I've made my stance clear here, though.

Shouldn't some conditions be physical?

They are all magickal mostly because it makes it infinitely easier for me to code. Adding the physical requirement in there would not only make little sense (Why would ruin make bleeding hurt more?), but it would also require that I revamp the condition system to be able to do anything on callback, which kind of complicates conditions more than I'd like.

[Fledermaus]

Adding the physical requirement in there would not only make little sense (Why would ruin make bleeding hurt more?).

Duh, your armor is broken so moar of your blood spills out.

[Rising_Dusk]

But you'd still bleed the same amount of blood regardless of how broken your armor was..

[Fledermaus]

[/sarcasm]

[Rising_Dusk]

With you I can never tell.

[Fledermaus]

I'll take that as a complement ;D

[VZManticoran]

*Laugh* So, does this mean that Whitewater Armor(Or whatever it is, I'm waiting for 1.09 to play DoE again), reduces the physical damage of spells by 6(or 8, I forget), while the Carapace only reduces magic damage from spells? Wouldn't that cause some vast improvements in how physical damage hits heroes? Since they already hit more because of innate magic resist, now they hit even more than that due to the very high magic resist with Carapace.

[Rising_Dusk]

Wouldn't that cause some vast improvements in how physical damage hits heroes? Since they already hit more because of innate magic resist, now they hit even more than that due to the very high magic resist with Carapace.

These are all innate design dilemmas within WC3, though, and would require I go back to stage 1 in map design to adjust for. Such things will be dealt with in AotZ, where things like damage type are removed entirely from the equation when calculating basic, hero resistances. Anyways, though, this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

The reality for DoE is that you have both magick resistance and physical resistance from level 1 to level 18. The difference between these is that magickal resistance is static at 20% throughout the game, but physical resistance can be changed dynamically via armor-adjusting features. (Ruin, Booties, Agility, Armor Items, Etc) In that light, such things as Ancient Carapace add a static bonus to the magick resistance (It adds multiplicatively rather than additively). Maybe I misunderstood what you were talking about since you were relatively vague, but this certainly should cover most of it.

[VZManticoran]

Got it. So with Carapace you have a 40% resist? Mostly my question was whether the -dmg armor effected spells, though, because if so, I'd like a list of the physical spells. Also curious why a few of Rose's arrows aren't physical then. Not Guided, but I would think the Crossfire arrows would be mostly physical.

[Fledermaus]

Mostly my question was whether the -dmg armor effected spells, though, because if so, I'd like a list of the physical spells.

Yes

For 1.08 or 1.09?

[Rectifier]

These are all innate design dilemmas within WC3, though, and would require I go back to stage 1 in map design to adjust for. Such things will be dealt with in AotZ, where things like damage type are removed entirely from the equation when calculating basic, hero resistances. Anyways, though, this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Holy crap, thats going to be awesome.

[Rising_Dusk]

So with Carapace you have a 40% resist?

Yep.

Also curious why a few of Rose's arrows aren't physical then. Not Guided, but I would think the Crossfire arrows would be mostly physical.

I wanted them to hurt more, and typically spells hurt more than physical assaults. However, with the changes being made in 1.09, they will be physical and will still be equally deadly. In 1.08b, the list of physical spells I don't remember, but if you want a list for 1.09, you will only need to be able to read English in the tooltips.