Muniez

[Merlin]

DoE uses the "standard" AoS method of last-shotting creeps to amass gold. It's actually from ladder's creeping system, but whatever. This was taken a step further by DotA by encouraging you to only manual attack creeps and also to deny enemy heroes their gold by killing your creeps before they die.

I want to discuss other methods of amassing gold, starting with examples put forth by other maps. AoM has a bounty system, where lumber is replaced with a resource called Bounty Points (iirc). This resource is gathered when you deal damage to an enemy unit and seems to scale depending on the amount of damage you inflict. This resource is later traded when you approach the Bounty Master near your fountain for gold. What this does is it no longer forces you to "last shot" enemy creeps, and you make money as long as you attack.

ToB O will use a similar system. The difference is you will simply receive gold for being in range when an enemy creep dies. This system doesn't force you to participate in combat at all in order to make money, but it is still beneficial to do so because you receive money faster. At the same time, supportive heroes such as N's Malfurion are not penalized in the "farming" department for having skills like Roar and Rejuvenation.

I think it would be highly beneficial for DoE to consider something similar. What does everyone else think?

[assassingao]

In range of the creeps when it dies will give bounty, I like it.

But would the bounty be split if there are multiple heroes in the area?

[Flameboy]

LoE has that too
As long as you are in a certain area around creeps you get gold. But towers don't give any, and no xp, which imo, is retarded (I think DoE has that too, always wondered why)
But I think this is something that could be implemented, as its better than the usual last-hit system.

And the bounty system in AoM is pretty retarded as you lose a certain part of the bounty if you're not level 20.

[Cooldood]

I think the last hit system is cool, its where players with skill excel from others... and all heroes have an attack (so far ) Its all a matter of timing, and people with better timing should get better rewards. I dont know about others, but I NEVER (or atleast almost never) look forwards to killing a hero just for the gold... The very fact that your taking someone out and you get to molest everything in the lane while they're gone is where I get my pleasure from

[Fulla]

I think making the bounty system the same way as the experience system is a bad idea.
I'll give some basic reasons:

• With the exception of critically defending a base, it removes all incentive to cast spells on creeps. Sure when your defending a base from being overrun or trying to break a tower, but outside that there is little reason to waste mana.
• It flattens the border between a skilled & noob player.
  Yes... it should be more noob friendly agreed, such as perhaps an assistance system similiar to hero killing, but completely removing last hit I think is a step to far. Personally I actually like the aspect of farming of creeps.
• I suspect melee Heroes won't even bother attacking creeps anymore whatsoever, unless there lane is clear of enemy Heroes, whilst currently a skilled player should run in now and then for a last hit kill.
• Trechbolts (Spelling??) - So they now will add conditions when they hit? But how will they ever hit anyone if nobody engages creeps?

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The AoM bounty system, is not bad, but..
You gain nothing from killing a creep, which is pretty bad. You should always gain something from personally killing a creep IMO, always.

[Merlin]

I think making the bounty system the same way as the experience system is a bad idea.
I'll give some basic reasons:

• With the exception of critically defending a base, it removes all incentive to cast spells on creeps. Sure when your defending a base from being overrun or trying to break a tower, but outside that there is little reason to waste mana.
• It flattens the border between a skilled & noob player.
  Yes... it should be more noob friendly agreed, such as perhaps an assistance system similiar to hero killing, but completely removing last hit I think is a step to far. Personally I actually like the aspect of farming of creeps.
• I suspect melee Heroes won't even bother attacking creeps anymore whatsoever, unless there lane is clear of enemy Heroes, whilst currently a skilled player should run in now and then for a last hit kill.
• Trebuchet - So they now will add conditions when they hit? But how will they ever hit anyone if nobody engages creeps?

====

The AoM bounty system, is not bad, but..
You gain nothing from killing a creep, which is pretty bad. You should always gain something from personally killing a creep IMO, always.

The reason for casting spells on creeps changes. Instead of casting them in order to get gold immediately, you cast them so that your creeps maintain an advantage so they can continue pushing, and so you can continue to receive gold as they "win" pushes.

Players will have more time to focus on the Hero vs. Hero battles if they aren't forced to last shot creeps in order to make money.

You suspect that heroes won't bother attacking? Have you played DotA? People NEVER attack unless it's to "last shot" a creep.

You let yourself get hit by trebuchets?

[Rectifier]

If you can't farm in DoE I feel sorry for you.

[Merlin]

Why would I want to farm? Do you find manual attacking and last-shotting to be enjoyable skills to perform in DoE? Do you return to the clan channel gloating, "Oh shit guys, did you see how many creeps I managed to last-shot that game? I'm the fuckin' KING"?

[Fulla]

Why would I want to farm? Do you find manual attacking and last-shotting to be enjoyable skills to perform in DoE? Do you return to the clan channel gloating, "Oh shit guys, did you see how many creeps I managed to last-shot that game? I'm the fuckin' KING"?

I like being rewarded if I kill 5 creeps & my opponent for that lane does jack shit.
Lots of interaction with the creeps is great.

The reason for casting spells on creeps changes. Instead of casting them in order to get gold immediately, you cast them so that your creeps maintain an advantage so they can continue pushing, and so you can continue to receive gold as they "win" pushes.

Sounds pretty boring.
Just stand in a lane spam a few spells, not much else?

Players will have more time to focus on the Hero vs. Hero battles if they aren't forced to last shot creeps in order to make money.

Yea, but at the moment theres a fine balance between whether to focus on a few creeps or go after a Hero.
Each has its own advantages, but now the creeps will have little relevance.

You suspect that heroes won't bother attacking? Have you played DotA? People NEVER attack unless it's to "last shot" a creep.

Yes, I've played Dota way way to many times.
They always attack creeps all the time infact.

You let yourself get hit by trebuchets?

When melee last hitting, happens on the odd occasion.
Part of timing & positioning yourself right.

===

The other thing I forgot to mention is, now ppl will get enormous amount of gold.
What will they spend it all on?

Only being able to buy creeps, it pretty limiting even boring at times, especially if you opponents are sensible and protect their lanes, simply farm back off your creeps.

[Merlin]

The reason for casting spells on creeps changes. Instead of casting them in order to get gold immediately, you cast them so that your creeps maintain an advantage so they can continue pushing, and so you can continue to receive gold as they "win" pushes.

Building on this, I believe it is highly compatible with DoE's current mechanics of "being in the right place, at the right time". You are no longer rewarded for killing individual enemy creeps, but are now instead rewarded for personally overseeing the success of a push in an area on the map.

They always attack creeps all the time infact.

Have you been called an auto-attacker noob? Manual attacks (A+Click on Creep) to last shot the creeps are what the "pros" do.

The other thing I forgot to mention is, now ppl will get enormous amount of gold.
What will they spend it all on?

Dusk can adjust this easily to make it very similar to how much gold you typically receive now. It's not a problem.

The thing is, if your opponent "crushes" your creeps, and you don't do jackshit, you don't get gold because his creeps aren't dying as fast as yours are.

Now, you could also do it a little differently, and base the amount of gold you receive on how much damage you dealt to the unit before it died. I believe Dusk can do this now that all the damage on the map is triggered. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

[2-P]

With the exception of critically defending a base, it removes all incentive to cast spells on creeps. Sure when your defending a base from being overrun or trying to break a tower, but outside that there is little reason to waste mana.

Besides pushing the lanes. And keeping the battle away from your towers because they deny exp and probably gold too.

It flattens the border between a skilled & noob player.
Yes... it should be more noob friendly agreed, such as perhaps an assistance system similiar to hero killing, but completely removing last hit I think is a step to far. Personally I actually like the aspect of farming of creeps.

Like Merlin said, it increases the focus on hero vs hero combat. Instead of last hitting, you try to keep the enemy hero away from the creeps. Which sounds a lot more fun to me.

Just stand in a lane spam a few spells, not much else?

Instead of standing in a lane and casting a spell only every once in a while to get a last hit....

The other thing I forgot to mention is, now ppl will get enormous amount of gold.

Dusk has now a lot more control over the amount of gold you gain throughout the game.

[Merlin]

Like Merlin said, it increases the focus on hero vs hero combat. Instead of last hitting, you try to keep the enemy hero away from the creeps. Which sounds a lot more fun to me.

Ah, yes. I hadn't even thought of this angle yet. A hero has to be near the creeps to get the gold. If you go after the hero and force him to back off, he won't get any gold. This actively reinforces the hero vs. hero part of the game. Great stuff.

[Dreamcatcher]

The thing is, if your opponent "crushes" your creeps, and you don't do jackshit, you don't get gold because his creeps aren't dying as fast as yours are.

What about giving each creep a fixed amount of bounty, that descreases every second it lived by 1 (for example). If you are pushing, your creeps would yield less, while the enemy creeps would give some decent gold.

It was a flash, may be a very stupid idea, but every idea is an idea

[Merlin]

I think keeping this as simple as possible is vital to successfully implementing it.

[Fulla]

Building on this, I believe it is highly compatible with DoE's current mechanics of "being in the right place, at the right time". You are no longer rewarded for killing individual enemy creeps, but are now instead rewarded for personally overseeing the success of a push in an area on the map.

Your are rewarded simply for being in the vicinity, regardless of which wave is winning.
Just advance/retreat where necessary, back to the next wave/tower or forward a bit.

Have you been called an auto-attacker noob? Manual attacks (A+Click on Creep) to last shot the creeps are what the "pros" do.

Pretty much everyone does that these days...
The difference between noob/pro is the amount of last hits & denies in each wave, staying on full health, forcing enemies back to base.

The thing is, if your opponent "crushes" your creeps, and you don't do jackshit, you don't get gold because his creeps aren't dying as fast as yours are.

As I said above>
But you just walk back and let the next wave or your towers kill them.

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Besides pushing the lanes. And keeping the battle away from your towers because they deny exp and probably gold too.

Sry you lost me? What denies gold/exp?

Like Merlin said, it increases the focus on hero vs hero combat. Instead of last hitting, you try to keep the enemy hero away from the creeps. Which sounds a lot more fun to me.

You do that now anyways, except now thats the only option available.

Instead of standing in a lane and casting a spell only every once in a while to get a last hit....

Your missing my point... nobody will cast spells the'll just stand near the creeps with auto attack & watch them fight.