2-P wrote:We need a replay with Scarlet playing Z/Z.
The thing is, everytime I've experienced against scarled playing as zuma, she happened to be with actual competent players, which allowed her to sneak out of a line to backf*ck someone. This takes absolutely no skill to pull off. And that's generally the only way you're getting kills as z/z. And since z/z is a horrible lanning hero, your team composition matters alot as her. Good team? Godly. Shitty team? Too bad!
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:12 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Z/Z actually has tremendous laning capacity. What the heck are you talking about? Ztera can shoot and constantly stay in Exp/Gold range while Zuma harasses and denies enemy heroes entirely. And seriously, even when Scarlet is on a terrible team or a team with more leavers than the Bane, she does great. I'm sorry, Oxy, but you're just plain wrong here.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:20 pm
by Oxygen
Rising_Dusk wrote:Z/Z actually has tremendous laning capacity. What the heck are you talking about? Ztera can shoot and constantly stay in Exp/Gold range while Zuma harasses and denies enemy heroes entirely.
That only works against a very select few, like meridia, jhita or rikter I guess. Can't blame you for being a fan of rock paper scissor though, that's how it was designed, right?
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:23 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Or anyone who can:
Not tank Zuma properly
Not blind Zuma
Also, your reference to RPS isn't how it was designed, nor is it even relevant.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:02 pm
by Oxygen
Genobee: tank bear
Dagg: tank bear
Anick: tank bear
Caliga: tank bear WHILE killing ztera (/faceroll)
Skitt: web and stay within range of creeps, tunnel /pitfall in case of rampage
Glasse: blind bear, can even dodge without blind
Rikter: switch lane, she is scissor to rikter's paper. Or pray for a one shot kill.
Verte: better switch lane, could attempt to kill bear using summons or pray for blind
Tornne: kill bear, hide from rampage
Malt: maim bear, could probably tank and kill it
Atrius: blind bear
Meridia: paper
Exuro: can't catch meee
Jhita: could attempt to kill the bear, though you're better off the lane
There you have it, it's either you can kill her or you can't, and I feel like the player's skill plays a minimal role in here, and that's because her skillset is an all or nothing thing. There's little room for innovation. There's little room for "oh man, that was an epic move! nice aim bro!"
disclaimer
Of course, my very objective analyzis is very average and items / team mates could change the results, but picture your average 1v1 bottom line or so.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:19 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Real Objectivity
Assuming 1v1 strictly and equal skill levels between players.
Oxygen wrote:Genobee: tank bear
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Dagg: tank bear
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Anick: tank bear
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Caliga: tank bear WHILE killing ztera (/faceroll)
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Skitt: web and stay within range of creeps, tunnel /pitfall in case of rampage
Disagree. Equal skill makes this ebb in Z/Z's favor because it's easy to run parallel to Skit, can easily deny skit and force retreat. If battle moves while Skit is burrowed, he can't follow and is still denied.
Oxygen wrote:Glasse: blind bear, can even dodge without blind
Agree. (Personal experience note, equal skill enemy player to myself was still denied by my bear plays. Blind is short-lived early on and you can still attack through blind and get lucky, since bear can easily tank Glasse. This should really be neutral, but I'll agree with you strictly by theory)
Oxygen wrote:Rikter: switch lane, she is scissor to rikter's paper. Or pray for a one shot kill.
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Verte: better switch lane, could attempt to kill bear using summons or pray for blind
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Tornne: kill bear, hide from rampage
Disagree. Equal skill demands that the Z/Z player can dodge Taint; early game high cooldown Taint makes the viability for bear denial high.
Oxygen wrote:Malt: maim bear, could probably tank and kill it
Neutral. (Could go both ways in actual play; denial is still a possibility, fear of ganks by Order teammates will likely cause denial, but we're not considering that here so I leave it at neutral)
Oxygen wrote:Atrius: blind bear
Disagree. Early game SS is virtually no duration at all, Atrius can't stay invis/blind bear forever, there's a trade off and it denies Atrius.
Oxygen wrote:Meridia: paper
Agree.
Oxygen wrote:Exuro: can't catch meee
Disagree. Exuro's Pride cooldown and proper dodging on Bear makes Exuro lunchmeat. Exuro will be denied either by Ztera attrition or Bear smack.
Oxygen wrote:Jhita: could attempt to kill the bear, though you're better off the lane
Agree.
I count 8 heroes that fear the bear and with proper Z/Z playing on an equal field can be denied by them out of 15 heroes on the team (1 neutral). That is more than half.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:43 pm
by 2-P
Eh, imo ZZ fall behind after early game when it comes to lane control. Heroes like Vert and Malth kill waves in a matter of seconds and Zuma dies rather fast if he tries to tank creeps.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:47 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Later game, yes. But later game, Z/Z really shouldn't be laning at all. (Just like how Tristy shouldn't be, he can't even hit in an AOE) Z/Z is good in a siege with Rampage on, so either supporting a siege with other big siegers (and acting as a pinch hero killer) or just going around hero killing is what they should be doing.
They're still not weak. Not at all.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:38 pm
by Oxygen
Rising_Dusk wrote:Later game, yes. But later game, Z/Z really shouldn't be laning at all.
Why shouldn't they be lanning at all, seeing how you just wrote two posts trying to convince me otherwise? I told you -- she only becomes valuable by backf*cking other heroes and playing ninja. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but she isn't called tristan or rikter.
And don't talk about the first 10ish levels, those don't matter because any half decent games won't end that early, let alone because of z/z (otherwise those games wouldn't prove to be good case studies, now would they?)
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:39 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Oxygen wrote:Why shouldn't they be lanning at all, seeing how you just wrote two posts trying to convince me otherwise?
My whole point, as I said two posts ago and you constantly seem to be ignoring, is that early game she is a great laner because of her capacity to scare off enemy heroes and deny them both gold and experience. Notice how the context of my last two posts are entirely written at the early game! Come on, man, pay attention.
Furthermore, they should only be laning late game when there's no one else available. They are not good at clearing big squads, period. Against big pushes, they should ping for help from the AOE players, just like Tristan should and Fahren should to a lesser extent. They are not Tristan or Rikter, and despite their hero killing being partially defined by sneak-ups (Seriously, what's your problem with that?), they can really lay into people in head-on combat just as well. Furthermore, they serve a far more versatile role in the total metagame than just hero killing, something heroes like Tristan cannot very well claim.
Oxygen wrote:And don't talk about the first 10ish levels, those don't matter because any half decent games won't end that early, let alone because of z/z (otherwise those games wouldn't prove to be good case studies, now would they?)
What the hell, lol, are you for real dude? The first ten levels define who gets level 10 first, who is stuck at L4 when you hit L10, and so forth. Those first ten levels are the most important at shaping the later metagame, because all denied levels go a long way in defining a player's effectiveness once you start dropping the big siege guns on bases. The game DOESN'T end in the first ten levels, but you're a failure of a player if you think "those don't matter."
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:22 pm
by 2-P
I think a drain/damage cap (similar to Taint) for Anick's Devour would be appropriate.
Caliga is....
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:33 pm
by Rising_Dusk
Caliga is on par with Tristan in terms of hero killing demolishing. I'm still debating whether I should tone down the both of them at once or not.
Also, I quite like no cap on Devour because it lets him sustain himself in combat like he should've always been able to do. Isolating him is where he can get hit hard, especially since he's quite squishy anyways. (Low armor and stuff)
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:58 pm
by Oxygen
Rising_Dusk wrote:Caliga is on par with Tristan in terms of hero killing demolishing.
absolutely not...?
Caliga can (in this order) haunt, seal, voidwalk if it wasn't active, tombreaver, click and ensure a kill against almost anyone. 80% of the creeps tickle him, and even those with magic damage aren't exactly amazing against his hefty ~1.4k health. None can outrun him except kassar or rose, but it doesn't happen if they're muted. In fact, caliga currently has the highest dps potential of all heroes. I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
Tristan tickles like a girl when compared to caliga. They're not even remotely close.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:54 pm
by Psiclone
I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
/agree.
Although I methinks Tristan is a bit more powerful than you give credit to.
Re: Positive Growth
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:13 pm
by Oxygen
Psiclone wrote:
I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
/agree.
Although I methinks Tristan is a bit more powerful than you give credit to.
I haven't tried tristan this patch for I find his skillset exceptionally mediocre. I don't have any suggestions right now.
