The thing is, everytime I've experienced against scarled playing as zuma, she happened to be with actual competent players, which allowed her to sneak out of a line to backf*ck someone. This takes absolutely no skill to pull off. And that's generally the only way you're getting kills as z/z. And since z/z is a horrible lanning hero, your team composition matters alot as her. Good team? Godly. Shitty team? Too bad!2-P wrote:We need a replay with Scarlet playing Z/Z.
Positive Growth
Re: Positive Growth
- Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth
Z/Z actually has tremendous laning capacity. What the heck are you talking about? Ztera can shoot and constantly stay in Exp/Gold range while Zuma harasses and denies enemy heroes entirely. And seriously, even when Scarlet is on a terrible team or a team with more leavers than the Bane, she does great. I'm sorry, Oxy, but you're just plain wrong here.
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Re: Positive Growth
That only works against a very select few, like meridia, jhita or rikter I guess. Can't blame you for being a fan of rock paper scissor though, that's how it was designed, right?Rising_Dusk wrote:Z/Z actually has tremendous laning capacity. What the heck are you talking about? Ztera can shoot and constantly stay in Exp/Gold range while Zuma harasses and denies enemy heroes entirely.
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Re: Positive Growth
Or anyone who can:
- Not tank Zuma properly
- Not blind Zuma
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep
Re: Positive Growth
Genobee: tank bear
Dagg: tank bear
Anick: tank bear
Caliga: tank bear WHILE killing ztera (/faceroll)
Skitt: web and stay within range of creeps, tunnel /pitfall in case of rampage
Glasse: blind bear, can even dodge without blind
Rikter: switch lane, she is scissor to rikter's paper. Or pray for a one shot kill.
Verte: better switch lane, could attempt to kill bear using summons or pray for blind
Tornne: kill bear, hide from rampage
Malt: maim bear, could probably tank and kill it
Atrius: blind bear
Meridia: paper
Exuro: can't catch meee
Jhita: could attempt to kill the bear, though you're better off the lane
There you have it, it's either you can kill her or you can't, and I feel like the player's skill plays a minimal role in here, and that's because her skillset is an all or nothing thing. There's little room for innovation. There's little room for "oh man, that was an epic move! nice aim bro!"
disclaimer
Of course, my very objective analyzis is very average and items / team mates could change the results, but picture your average 1v1 bottom line or so.
Dagg: tank bear
Anick: tank bear
Caliga: tank bear WHILE killing ztera (/faceroll)
Skitt: web and stay within range of creeps, tunnel /pitfall in case of rampage
Glasse: blind bear, can even dodge without blind
Rikter: switch lane, she is scissor to rikter's paper. Or pray for a one shot kill.
Verte: better switch lane, could attempt to kill bear using summons or pray for blind
Tornne: kill bear, hide from rampage
Malt: maim bear, could probably tank and kill it
Atrius: blind bear
Meridia: paper
Exuro: can't catch meee
Jhita: could attempt to kill the bear, though you're better off the lane
There you have it, it's either you can kill her or you can't, and I feel like the player's skill plays a minimal role in here, and that's because her skillset is an all or nothing thing. There's little room for innovation. There's little room for "oh man, that was an epic move! nice aim bro!"
disclaimer
Of course, my very objective analyzis is very average and items / team mates could change the results, but picture your average 1v1 bottom line or so.
- Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth
Real Objectivity
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Re: Positive Growth
Eh, imo ZZ fall behind after early game when it comes to lane control. Heroes like Vert and Malth kill waves in a matter of seconds and Zuma dies rather fast if he tries to tank creeps.
Humans don't have the patience to wait even ten minutes for something!
- Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth
Later game, yes. But later game, Z/Z really shouldn't be laning at all. (Just like how Tristy shouldn't be, he can't even hit in an AOE) Z/Z is good in a siege with Rampage on, so either supporting a siege with other big siegers (and acting as a pinch hero killer) or just going around hero killing is what they should be doing.
They're still not weak. Not at all.
They're still not weak. Not at all.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep
Re: Positive Growth
Why shouldn't they be lanning at all, seeing how you just wrote two posts trying to convince me otherwise? I told you -- she only becomes valuable by backf*cking other heroes and playing ninja. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but she isn't called tristan or rikter.Rising_Dusk wrote:Later game, yes. But later game, Z/Z really shouldn't be laning at all.
And don't talk about the first 10ish levels, those don't matter because any half decent games won't end that early, let alone because of z/z (otherwise those games wouldn't prove to be good case studies, now would they?)
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Re: Positive Growth
My whole point, as I said two posts ago and you constantly seem to be ignoring, is that early game she is a great laner because of her capacity to scare off enemy heroes and deny them both gold and experience. Notice how the context of my last two posts are entirely written at the early game! Come on, man, pay attention.Oxygen wrote:Why shouldn't they be lanning at all, seeing how you just wrote two posts trying to convince me otherwise?
Furthermore, they should only be laning late game when there's no one else available. They are not good at clearing big squads, period. Against big pushes, they should ping for help from the AOE players, just like Tristan should and Fahren should to a lesser extent. They are not Tristan or Rikter, and despite their hero killing being partially defined by sneak-ups (Seriously, what's your problem with that?), they can really lay into people in head-on combat just as well. Furthermore, they serve a far more versatile role in the total metagame than just hero killing, something heroes like Tristan cannot very well claim.
What the hell, lol, are you for real dude? The first ten levels define who gets level 10 first, who is stuck at L4 when you hit L10, and so forth. Those first ten levels are the most important at shaping the later metagame, because all denied levels go a long way in defining a player's effectiveness once you start dropping the big siege guns on bases. The game DOESN'T end in the first ten levels, but you're a failure of a player if you think "those don't matter."Oxygen wrote:And don't talk about the first 10ish levels, those don't matter because any half decent games won't end that early, let alone because of z/z (otherwise those games wouldn't prove to be good case studies, now would they?)
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep
Re: Positive Growth
I think a drain/damage cap (similar to Taint) for Anick's Devour would be appropriate.
Caliga is....
Caliga is....
Humans don't have the patience to wait even ten minutes for something!
- Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth
Caliga is on par with Tristan in terms of hero killing demolishing. I'm still debating whether I should tone down the both of them at once or not.
Also, I quite like no cap on Devour because it lets him sustain himself in combat like he should've always been able to do. Isolating him is where he can get hit hard, especially since he's quite squishy anyways. (Low armor and stuff)
Also, I quite like no cap on Devour because it lets him sustain himself in combat like he should've always been able to do. Isolating him is where he can get hit hard, especially since he's quite squishy anyways. (Low armor and stuff)
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep
Re: Positive Growth
absolutely not...?Rising_Dusk wrote:Caliga is on par with Tristan in terms of hero killing demolishing.
Caliga can (in this order) haunt, seal, voidwalk if it wasn't active, tombreaver, click and ensure a kill against almost anyone. 80% of the creeps tickle him, and even those with magic damage aren't exactly amazing against his hefty ~1.4k health. None can outrun him except kassar or rose, but it doesn't happen if they're muted. In fact, caliga currently has the highest dps potential of all heroes. I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
Tristan tickles like a girl when compared to caliga. They're not even remotely close.
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Re: Positive Growth
/agree.I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
Although I methinks Tristan is a bit more powerful than you give credit to.
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Re: Positive Growth
I haven't tried tristan this patch for I find his skillset exceptionally mediocre. I don't have any suggestions right now.Psiclone wrote:/agree.I highly suggest making voidwalk work as it used to (no attack possible) because I thought it was actually fun to have to furiously toggle it and actually have to think a little to get kills.
Although I methinks Tristan is a bit more powerful than you give credit to.