Positive Growth

This is where all random discussion about DoE goes. If it doesn't feel like it fits anywhere else but is still related to the map, this is the place to post it.
vesuvan
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by vesuvan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:11 pm

You're mixing things up here. You need to differentiate between being closer to victory and having an advantage over the enemy.
I have made no mistake, and I very well understand the difference between scoring a goal and influencing the rate of scoring at a particular point in the game. The function of how likely a team is to win is of the sum of all advantages. However, this is not particularly important for the point I was trying to make. Buying items increases your chance of winning just like any other decision that benifits the team, and there is nothing wrong with that. I construed the tone of Kaome's comment to be one that attempts to make out the nature of the influence items have on the game to be an injustice, and I must challenge this position in the event that it is the intended meaning.
He wants to pick hero X and play the game, not farm for resource Y.
Maybe I just can't be bothered to look through two shops of items in order to find a good one for my hero. If you want to do that that's perfectly fine, but please leave me a fair chance to still be able to beat you.
In soccer, I want to stand on the grass, not X(verb) balls into goals for resource Y.
Maybe I just can't be bothered to run, kick, elbow, headbutt, or move at all. If you want to do that, that's perfectly fine but please leave me a fair chance to beat you.

I don't care if it forces them to either have a significantly reduced challenge or appease me with a false victory. I don't care if what I am doing is considered griefing towards my team.

The game of soccer already offers a set of rules to use that are more than capable of dealing with what I can or cannot do in the game, but my rules are better, so I will follow them instead. Please let me have a fair chance to win at... we arent't even technically playing the same game are we? It's like I'm just taking up space on the field playing "stand on the grass" when everybody around is trying to play soccer. And one team is not only short a player, but has an obstacle on it! Oh what a miserable game of soccer this is.

Can you tell that the scrub mentality is a pet peeve of mine?
Remove the faction items entirely and in their place give each hero an unlockable sixth spell that costs faction to learn and upgrade.
The only difference would be that function upgrade/item/abilities would be on your action card and not your item slots.
͎̟͕͎̯̺͎̟͕͎̯̺ĩ̵̢͉̺̹͖͔̻̣̟̙ͦ̋̍ͤ̈́ͫ̓͐͐̅͊͒ͪͬͧͅn̢̮͈̪̤̳̏ͥ̐̍̌͊͜͟͠
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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:38 pm

Heroes in WC3 don't support >5 hero skills, which kills that possibility before it can really be discussed.
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AnemicRoyalty
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by AnemicRoyalty » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm

oh wait, sorry I meant an unlockable fifth spell (still in AotZ mode :P)

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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:58 pm

The worst part of that is coming up with a fitting fifth spell for every hero. It was hard enough coming up with the first four. :p
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AnemicRoyalty
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by AnemicRoyalty » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:13 pm

Alternatively, you could make the fifth spell available from the start and have it cost faction to use. Although that's probably straying more into AotZ and ToB territory.

Example:

Sozen
Instability (1 Faction)
For the next X seconds, all of Sozen's abilities (including Mana Shield) cost Y% more mana but have Z% increased effect.

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Kaome Sky Deathand
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Kaome Sky Deathand » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:55 pm

I've played plenty of games where I have only played to have fun...goof off...focus fire target foe...etc.
I didn't care about winning or losing, just having a riot as I whistled by shouting 'Shining Blade' or worked in tandem with another hero because our skills made us unstoppable in a rampage until we ran out of mana. I've owned a single lane in plenty of games, pushing to the very brink with a comrade at my side, wiping out single foe after foe because it's funny to see Mass Wrath or invisible strike of the gods. We ignored bases, calls for help, even backdoor buttbuddies just to have a laugh.
That, by your rules of reality vesuvan, is an unacceptable option.
I do not play the game to win, therefore I am wrong.

I pity that you can only play the game as serious business.
It is a job to you, whether you say so or not. It is a task that you punch in and out of.
You must own other players, then own bases, then win. There is no other option.

I had the option of goofing off before...
Now I have to be in a mindset to fight and win and buy five crowns or suffer defeat.
That's not enjoyment...not to me. I embrace challenge...back and forth strife.
Each game now is decided in the first fifteen minutes. The next fifteen is a one side struggling to delay the inevitable.
When said the rich got richer, I meant that people that utilized items gained a rather LARGE advantage whereas games before...they could still be taken out by a person with skill and luck. The ability of a player is no longer measured by how well he can utilize a hero with other heroes or with precise timing. Now a player is measured by their ability to slay victims in an unbreakable chain and mass faction items to bring out total global saturation (of Uroboros) of ownage.
Not doing so is, by your rules of reality vesuvan, wrong.

Then I'm wrong.
So I won't play to disturb your 'A' game.
Cruor Vult

Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of our greatest strength, and our greatest weakness.

Soon we shall be One...joined in the Word.

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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:56 pm

AnemicRoyalty wrote:Alternatively, you could make the fifth spell available from the start and have it cost faction to use. Although that's probably straying more into AotZ and ToB territory.
I have a feeling that most of those abilities would feel kind of cheap and hollow if they were just buffs like that. Many heroes are calibrated and all are designed around having 4 skills. Adding a fifth would really mess up a lot of the thought process and synergy between heroes. Not to mention, with 30 heroes, they'd be treading on each other's toes more and more.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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Deschain
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Deschain » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:28 pm

@ Kaome: There is a way to remedy all your woes. Abolish the items. All of them. Abolish target unit spells. But it would be another game and not DoE.

Vesu's reality isn't just his, it is how the metagame swings. Sometimes you benefit othertimes you suffer.
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

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2-P
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by 2-P » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:03 am

Buying items increases your chance of winning just like any other decision that benifits the team, and there is nothing wrong with that.
90% of the AoS maps you'll find on battle net are decided after 50% of the actual game time, all the losing team does in the second half is delaying the unavoidable. If you still think that "there is nothing wrong with that" then why did you start playing doe to begin with? Play Dota, it's a lot more challenging in that aspect...
Humans don't have the patience to wait even ten minutes for something!

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shalnath
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by shalnath » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:33 am

Actually DotA is fairly similar. In the end it all comes down to which team has less noobs.
"Within every world, there are cultures, within every culture, there are groups, within every group, there are leaders. These leaders are not truly chosen, they are destined, it is their fate to lead, and it is this fate that drives them. Souls yearn to be driven, they in themselves can not direct, however, these leaders are predetermined, by whatever means, to guide the wills and mend the errors of these wandering souls. A forest, cold, cured, flawless, meticulous, and fearful, what drives it, what keeps the balance? The inner beings of all the co-existant creatures swarm together, and every one is guided by another, in more a cycle, then a hierarchy. The eyes of a forest are always watching and guiding, yet the sun never sets on the forest, and it never shall." ~ The Chaos Theory

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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Soul_Reaver » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:24 am

That's pretty much the case with any pub game where two teams fight for victory.

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Oxygen
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Oxygen » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:21 am

Storm wrote:Actually DotA is fairly similar. In the end it all comes down to which team has less noobs.
To its credit, dota cannot end to a single push around the 9 minute mark.

I mean, face it, most of the time, you're either babysitting a base, or literally destroying one through creeps and lack of attention from your opponent's part. And either way, I feel like the game is ending too early to have fun. You might say, yeah okay, sieging is fun, but what if none's there? You're just watching 7 hydras throwing globs of acid on a crypt. In over 50% of the cases, outposts falling or being severely damaged is the result of someone not even being present there. And I'm not talking about a dead opponent. 40% of the destructions are probably due to having one or two heroes present, but unable to do anything against the overwhelming amount of creeps being bought. In only a very few cases I felt like I had skillfully or were skillfully outplayed (notice: outplayed, not outpurchased / outheroed) and slowly but surely erroded the shit out of the dying base.

The map is way too god damn large, and the game is soo punishing for screwing up at certain points that you're scared of leaving those points of interest (outposts) to run around the map a little and show off your EoD or Taint aiming skills, for instance. But noo. As Rikter, in most cases, I find myself clusterfucked at either fountains, trying to pick off creeps, losing exp to towers and being so powerless because of certain highly overwhelming, click and rape-a-wave such as slicer, bolt, scorched earth and sunder, or click and rape-a-player spells such as haunt, umbra, flickerflame and more. Raw power... See the tl;dr

In addition, I often repeated something about having a clusterfuck of heroes either top or bottom, without exactly providing any reason to explain this, but here it is; middle has no value. It's almost impossible to break through if you aren't a sieger hero, and even then, why go through the trouble when the other lanes are infinitely easier to go through? I've only witnessed a SINGLE GAME, EVER, which was won through sieging middle, and I was verte, catching the team in a moment of inattention, and getting a quick kill off dusk. That was cheesy.

tl;dr

- Due to the little resistance of buildings and high power of creeps, rounds are often game over a small room of inattention, and not over the higher level of game play of a certain team
- Raw aoe power, disabling and single target dps > all. There's very little room for very skillful manoeuver and outplaying your opponent when creep waves are turned to dust after a cast or two, which creates a point where hero killers need to deal very high damage to kill a pusher, which in return, makes the pusher need to ... and it goes on. There's almost no room for "strange" skillsets such as innert's either.
- People have almost no incentive to hang around the middle part of the map, which tends to cause players to amass on the edges of the map, and forget skillful play here; it's just aoe aoe aoe ult ult ult, zero manoeuver

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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:59 am

Oxygen wrote:I mean, face it, most of the time, you're either babysitting a base, or literally destroying one through creeps and lack of attention from your opponent's part. And either way, I feel like the game is ending too early to have fun. You might say, yeah okay, sieging is fun, but what if none's there? You're just watching 7 hydras throwing globs of acid on a crypt. In over 50% of the cases, outposts falling or being severely damaged is the result of someone not even being present there. And I'm not talking about a dead opponent. 40% of the destructions are probably due to having one or two heroes present, but unable to do anything against the overwhelming amount of creeps being bought. In only a very few cases I felt like I had skillfully or were skillfully outplayed (notice: outplayed, not outpurchased / outheroed) and slowly but surely erroded the shit out of the dying base.
You might hate me for this, but I've got to say it. I designed DoE to be like this. I wanted DoE to reward positioning on the field of battle. I made it so that if you ignore middle too long it can be ripped out, so that if you happen to have 6 players defend top and the one you told to defend bot doesn't, that bot can be totally ripped apart. That is part of the game, that is fully intentional, that is never going to change.

It is designed to be like RISK. Your main army cannot be everywhere at once. You might whine about that not taking skill or being utterly skillless, but that is only because it is a skill you are not used to having demanded of you. A team skill, not just a single player's might over the rest of the team. If your team as a collective cannot get in gear and coordinate, then a better coordinated team will rip you apart despite how much better a single player you might be. Maybe you hate that, but that is why I play the game.
Oxygen wrote:- Due to the little resistance of buildings and high power of creeps, rounds are often game over a small room of inattention, and not over the higher level of game play of a certain team
The reality is that by your not paying attention to a creep wave hired by the enemy team, it therefore says that the enemy team has a higher level of game play and are more talented at the macro-management necessary to win the game.

I'm sorry that DoE is the only AoS map you can repeatedly lose in to some things beyond your own control.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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SetaSoujirou
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by SetaSoujirou » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:14 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote: made it so that if you ignore middle too long it can be ripped out, so that if you happen to have 6 players defend top and the one you told to defend bot doesn't, that bot can be totally ripped apart.
And you called pushing through mid a cheap trick.
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Rising_Dusk
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Re: Positive Growth

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:44 pm

I b*tch and moan the same as any player, that doesn't mean it wasn't intentional.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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