1.07 Discussion

[TheLegendReborn]

Look here's the deal, we aren't saying that in a team vs team environment vela is overpowered but when there is a gank squad going around vela ensures a kill EVERY time as supposed to giving the other player a fighting chance to atleast get away or hold the enemies off until backup arrives.

Vela effectively keeps almost anyone still (Long enough for a decent focus fire) unless they have someway to instantly pop the prison or blink out which only a few heroes have the ability to do.

P.S. Also with Ruin tossed into the mix it's even harder to call things overpowered or underpowered due to the many different hero combinations that can be chosen

[vesuvan]

If you were caught alone with vela and one or more of her better ganking partners, knowing your hero choice and watching the map, you deserve to die. balance isn't code for "make it impossible for the player to make stupid decisions".

Vela isn't unique in this regard, it just so happens if you get caught alone with two bane heroes, you will die. Tornne, caliga, rikter, atrius, vela, anick, and skittel are all godly gankers. Try to not get left alone, watch the minimap, and understand that DoE is a game where players are given very effective tools for killing each other.

[pandamanana]

my only problem with 1.07 is not the introduction of ruin itself, but the spam-age of ruin over all. I feel as if in every fight I have, I am ruined at least 1/4 of the time. I believe such a devastating condition like mute or ruin should be implemented with rationing involved. I mean you don't see like... 30 second mutes? Because mute is so powerful. Ruin is the (in my opinion) the melee hero's Mute. It rapes them. Kassar with active Ruin around him plus knockdown and speed boosts... its ridiculous sometimes. I just wished that Ruin would be used a little bit less or at least for shorter durations (like mute) because it is so powerful compared to say... 10 damage per second (bleed).

[TheLegendReborn]

If you were caught alone with vela and one or more of her better ganking partners, knowing your hero choice and watching the map, you deserve to die. balance isn't code for "make it impossible for the player to make stupid decisions".

Nor is balance code for "Dieing is your fault because you couldn't predict where they were 24/7." I'm sure most people would agree you don't deserve to die just because she caught you off guard for a second whilst was it any other hero you would have a fighting chance to get away or even kill your gankers.

[vesuvan]

Nor is balance code for "Dieing is your fault because you couldn't predict where they were

Yes it is. As I said before, any combination of bane heroes is going to make a deadly ganking pair, and if vela and a partner weren't able to kill any lone hero, I would say that she was underpowered. It just so happens in DoE that ambushes and flanking have a very high success rate, so don't fall into traps. Of course, you can't avoid every trap, but thats just how the game is designed.

Even then, her bone prison is not a death sentence. Most order heroes have some tool to deal with the situation, and if you don't know how to use them, its just a case of vela knowing her hero better than you know yours.

[Wufei]

Ok, then I ask that Ztera/Zuma be buffed, because once you hook the bear, he's pretty much dead. The point I'm trying to get at here, is that as soon as Vela comes on screen, she can tele to a corpse, prison you, and a gank ensues. Is it fair that you have to run EVERY TIME a certain hero comes up? Fact is, in 3v3 combat, bone prison can effectively keep a target without blink from battling. Period. Stille is the exception to the rule, unless they have Sin or Caliga to keep said Stille silenced. I think that Bone Prison seems at the moment as more of a 'cheese' skill and less of a 'skills' skill. Anybody can just hop in once bone prison is up and suddenly said hero dies. I think thats a little unfair, not counting ruin... not to mention Ztera is HELPLESS in the Prison, having much less hp than Zuma and not being able to move as her fragile Agility Hero self and possessing only one active spell that affects her... I just struck upon a brilliant idea. Zuma's taunt could affect heroes too. That is, they will blindly attack the bear until the duration of the skill ends. For balancing issues, Zuma could be crippled for the duration of the taunt(I mean the condition that halves movement speed, I think it was Cripple). That would make Zuma more of an effective combatant but simultaneously allow other heroes... and Ztera... to deal her damage. Additionally it would make Rampage a much more viable skill, because said Zuma could gain Rampage and then use Taunt, and still be able to move at normal speed. It seems a viable solution to me. Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we have any positive conditions?

[vesuvan]

Wow, you brought up a lot of subjects.

The point I'm trying to get at here, is that as soon as Vela comes on screen, she can tele to a corpse, prison you, and a gank ensues. Is it fair that you have to run EVERY TIME a certain hero comes up?

Ztera has to run from a lot of heroes, vela isn't special. And its not like you can just be rigored out of nowhere, you have to be near a corpse. All vela does is exploit when you leave yourself open.

Comparing the best ganker in the game(vela) when she is in her best situation to the hero most vulnerable to ganks (ztera) when shes in her worst situation is not a fair complaint. Understand your weaknesses. Also notice that there are many other heroes besides vela that people have to invariably run from, like tornne, exuro, anick, or caliga. it just so happens that all of those heroes are effective in duels, but vela traded her solo hunting ability for better gankage.

Fact is, in 3v3 combat, bone prison can effectively keep a target without blink from battling. Period. Stille is the exception to the rule, unless they have Sin or Caliga to keep said Stille silenced.

So a hero that is prisoned, muted, and around exuro SHOULD be able to function? I thought this was a 3v3 not a 3v1, in which case, you should die.

I think that Bone Prison seems at the moment as more of a 'cheese' skill and less of a 'skills' skill. Anybody can just hop in once bone prison is up and suddenly said hero dies.

How difficult it is to execute bone prison is absolutely irrelevant to its balance. We've already covered what happens if you get flanked by any two combination of bane heroes, and that bone prison is not inescapable. Does zuma strike work on bone prison?

Zuma's taunt could affect heroes too. That is, they will blindly attack the bear until the duration of the skill ends. For balancing issues, Zuma could be crippled for the duration of the taunt(I mean the condition that halves movement speed, I think it was Cripple). That would make Zuma more of an effective combatant but simultaneously allow other heroes... and Ztera... to deal her damage. Additionally it would make Rampage a much more viable skill, because said Zuma could gain Rampage and then use Taunt, and still be able to move at normal speed. It seems a viable solution to me.

I agree that zumas taunt needs some work. It seems to me your complaint is more about zuma than it is vela anyway. Maybe when dusk comes back you can suggest this to him.

why don't we have any positive conditions?

Where the heck did that come from? I can't speak for dusk, but I can list the things that are fundamentally wrong with positive conditions.

They only encourage interaction with your teammates, while negative conditions force enemies to try and exploit each other. If every condition is negative, spells like martyr and envy make much more sense and are less clunky. In order to really exploit positive conditions, there would ned to be a number of spells that caused them and worked with them, this means less offensive spells, and DoE revolves around offensive spells.

[TheLegendReborn]

How difficult it is to execute bone prison is absolutely irrelevant to its balance. We've already covered what happens if you get flanked by any two combination of bane heroes, and that bone prison is not inescapable. Does zuma strike work on bone prison?

No we haven't covered flanking, we are just covering the action of Vela appearing on the screen and then boom bone prison followed by w/e hero you want to come in. Vela doesn't require her to flank my any measure due to her amazing mobility (Which on it's own is fine) but with Ruin at her side she completely demolishes people. What has been said is that with the introduction of Ruin it makes Vela much more of a force because you only need to put one point into her Ruin move and you're set which frees up extra skill points she wouldn't have had in previous versions. (IE 1 point for Ruin in comparison to putting 2 or 3 points in just for minus 5 or 6 armour)

[Blind]

Ruin is the (in my opinion) the melee hero's Mute.

Well, you're wrong. Blind is the attacker's mute.

And I don't think you have to run everytime Vela comes up. Just play a better ball game than her and heroes like Glyphe, Stille, Innert, AK, Aurea, Janise, and Rose can very easily deal with her and turn what her offense was into her running for her life.

Does zuma strike work on bone prison?

Yeah it does.

And Vela's Rake Armor matters to be leveled because quite frankly, her constantly attacking heroes like AK, Stille, Glyphe, Kassar, Zuma, Janise, Rose, whatever is not practical. She is not a blunt "beat them over the head" hero like Anick is. You need to level it so you can run in, hit once, and get out for ten seconds before you do it again. If she's just sitting there attacking you, you can exploit that, fireball to the face, axes to the face, cloudburst aura, Communion a ward/prison, Spirit Burn, Schism, God knows what else and rape her wholy.

[TheLegendReborn]

If she's just sitting there attacking you, you can exploit that, fireball to the face, axes to the face, cloudburst aura, Communion a ward/prison, Spirit Burn, Schism, God knows what else and rape her wholy.

No one is suggesting that she would just attack you but in combination of Rigor she can dish out nasty damage.

Part of Vela's problem is that she isn't exactly overpowered but it's the fact that she can work with anyone she wants and she makes an amazing partner as supposed to almost any other hero in which they work well with a few choice heroes but not everyone.

[Steve]

I'm honestly surprised Wufei isn't complaining about Rikter or Tornne...

Also, could you PLEASE look around your keyboard for an "Enter" key? It's somewhat irritating reading a block of text sitting on my screen like a pixelated frog.

[TheLegendReborn]

On that note I would like to say that Rikter should not be able to crit within his bladestorm due to the fact that it accelerates his attacks to such a point where he can just spin like a top demolishing almost anything in his path.

Well that isn't true, I would be fine with Rikter being able to crit in a bladestorm IF the crit bonus percentage was lowered.

[Leprikhan]

Have you ever tried WWEing through a hero backed, half decent push? Let me tell you, it's a good way to die. Not to mention, if you nerfed the crit on WWE, it loses virtually all usability, turning Rikter into nothing better then a straight up attacker.

[Steve]

Legend, it's already like... 15% or so... >_>

[Blind]

On that note I would like to say that Rikter should not be able to crit within his bladestorm due to the fact that it accelerates his attacks to such a point where he can just spin like a top demolishing almost anything in his path.

That's the only thing that makes Rikter more than "just another blademaster hero." Seriously, it's freakin' amazingly original to have a bladestorm count just like an attack, but to an area. Hell, his bladestorm is really funny when he's blinded, you see like 50 'stray' messages, it's great. Maim rapes it too.