1.07 Discussion

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Loki
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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Loki » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:28 pm

I'd end up transversing first, bone prison, and smack them with a Rigor. lol
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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Hell_Tempest » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:00 pm

I usually transverse the into the towers, bone prison them, and when they walk out Rigor them if they're not alreayd dead.
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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by TargetPractice » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:35 pm

Wufei wrote:Ok, I personally think with the update that Vela has become OP. Bone Prison is now effectively a death sentence because not only can Vela attack you in it, but also she Ruins you and then it's just a matter of time. Vela + pretty much any other non-melee baneite = good game. Bone Prison is also unkillable. It lasts just long enough to effectively Entangling Roots you, but short enough so that you can't break it in time to do much good. I vote that Bone Prison be weakened health-wise (Somewhat significantly?) and increased duration-wise. That would make it a much more tactical skill. It eliminates the possibility of sitting it out (Since you're forced to do so anyway), and would tend to favor ranged heroes a little more, since they can keep their range from outside units (possibility for combo?). I also vote that the area be made large enough to include at least one more hero in it, for even more strategically effective situations. Last but not least, I vote that Vela's attack speed be reduced as part of this change, so she can't simply cheese by dropping Bone Prison right after she corpse-teles to the target.
I actually agree completely, he has a point, whenever I am order unless I have blink or AK or glyphe or someone is there to beat the walls up, im dead, guranteed, and even if they do kill walls caliga or somethin runs up and haunts me

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Blind » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:35 pm

I disagree entirely.
Four attacks from any decently leveled hero can level a prison if you're intelligent enough to hit the same piece. A spell and an attack destroys it too, anyone with a blink can get out easily, Stille can pop the damned thing and do more damage with it than Vela can, and anyone inside of it can WALK to the other side of the prison to dodge ANY melee attack on the other side.

Bone prison hurts, as it should, but it hurts most against those who are not expecting it. If you aren't caught off-guard, then that ace you keep up your sleeve makes it useless. It should not see a nerf, not in the least.

And Sozen is perfect now. Seriously guys, just because he now requires a brain to play effectively doesn't make him underpowered. He can still easily score huge streaks and practically dodge death at nearly every turn, but now seeing Sozen come at you doesn't always make you say scream out in surrender. It's better this way.
Last edited by Blind on Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Steve » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:41 pm

And that is a great, eloquent first post that I agree with.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by TargetPractice » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:31 am

Blind wrote:I disagree entirely.
Four attacks from any decently leveled hero can level a prison if you're intelligent enough to hit the same piece. A spell and an attack destroys it too, anyone with a blink can get out easily, Stille can pop the damned thing and do more damage with it than Vela can, and anyone inside of it can WALK to the other side of the prison to dodge ANY melee attack on the other side.

Bone prison hurts, as it should, but it hurts most against those who are not expecting it. If you aren't caught off-guard, then that ace you keep up your sleeve makes it useless. It should not see a nerf, not in the least.

And Sozen is perfect now. Seriously guys, just because he now requires a brain to play effectively doesn't make him underpowered. He can still easily score huge streaks and practically dodge death at nearly every turn, but now seeing Sozen come at you doesn't always make you say scream out in surrender. It's better this way.
4 hits? By then your dead, your forgetting if its a good bane team its prison+tornne+exuro+genobee=death

blink costs 8 faction dude, it takes up to 3 kills to get that far, by then you could have gotten killed quite a bit

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Blind » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:47 am

your forgetting if its a good bane team its prison+tornne+exuro+genobee=death
You're forgetting that if it's 4v1 you should die anyways.
If it were 4v4, it would take all of the 4 heroes 1 second to break the prison.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Hell_Tempest » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:35 pm

TargetPractice wrote:
Blind wrote:I disagree entirely.
Four attacks from any decently leveled hero can level a prison if you're intelligent enough to hit the same piece. A spell and an attack destroys it too, anyone with a blink can get out easily, Stille can pop the damned thing and do more damage with it than Vela can, and anyone inside of it can WALK to the other side of the prison to dodge ANY melee attack on the other side.

Bone prison hurts, as it should, but it hurts most against those who are not expecting it. If you aren't caught off-guard, then that ace you keep up your sleeve makes it useless. It should not see a nerf, not in the least.

And Sozen is perfect now. Seriously guys, just because he now requires a brain to play effectively doesn't make him underpowered. He can still easily score huge streaks and practically dodge death at nearly every turn, but now seeing Sozen come at you doesn't always make you say scream out in surrender. It's better this way.
4 hits? By then your dead, your forgetting if its a good bane team its prison+tornne+exuro+genobee=death

blink costs 8 faction dude, it takes up to 3 kills to get that far, by then you could have gotten killed quite a bit
Last time I checked, 3 x 2 = 6
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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Wufei » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:20 pm

Yes, lets all assume that there is 4v1 in the lane all vs vela... I made my mention of entangling roots, and that the prison doesn't last long enough for you to break it, but does last long enough to trap those within. Also, it makes any person inside effectively target practice, eliminating having to aim for the target... as mentioned before, Genobee gets a free hit, and the walls are situated in such a way that it would take at LEAST 2 seconds to break a wall, not counting time to get out of the way of spells that could potentially do lots of damage (Tornne/Geno nukes). Even then, any DECENT Vela can bone prison you when you run over a corpse, then teleport in for nuke damage and then cause all sorts of havoc with Ruin. Previously, the armor reduction wasn't enough to make her OP, since it increased gradually with level. But any ranged hero (Which bane's heroes make up for with ranged spells) can fire into the area. I bet you that there is a 0% survival rate with Vela and any set of two of the following heroes: Tornne, Rikter, Geno, Verte, Atrius. Feel free to add any you think I've missed. You might only need Vela and Tornne or Geno, though. Assuming 2v2 or 3v3, Vela's ability would dominate the entire battlefield. I should know, I played a game vs her as Ztera/Zuma. Needless to say I was made helpless because she kept killing the bear... and FYI, the bear can't move within Bone Prison. Don't say 'you could just revive it', because every time I did, the SAME THING happened. Vela could always assure that at least one or more heroes would die due to Bone Prison.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Blind » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:28 pm

Well look at the scenario you're posing.
I bet you that there is a 0% survival rate with Vela and any set of two of the following heroes: Tornne, Rikter, Geno, Verte, Atrius
That's 3v1, and even if you had just Tornne and Rikter against a single hero I'd bet that hero would die if the Tornne and Rikter were worth their salt.

Now if you want to discuss Vela's prison in a team environment where the field is 3v3, none of your points hold. Maybe genobee will have used Sunder already, maybe there's a Victor to heal between hits, maybe there's a Stille to pop the prison, maybe the hero has a blink and can naturally escape, maybe you trapped AK with Aurea nearby and God knows you don't want to tank those two even if one is trapped. Seriously, anything and everyone is imbalanced when the odds are severely in their favor.

It is not entangling roots because of the following:
  • You cannot blink when rooted, you can blink when prison'd.
  • You cannot kill the roots, you can kill the prison.
  • You are not protected partially from melee attacks when rooted, you are when prison'd.
  • Etc.
This isn't factoring that certain heroes can GAIN from being within a prison. For instance, go play Innert against Vela and use Spirit Burn when prison'd. Now blow that spirit. You just stole 150 life from something like 8 prison pieces. Full heal, anyone? Thank you, Vela!

And ruin isn't inherently imbalanced early on for one main reason. Ruin's effectiveness is more dependent upon the attack damage of the attacker and not the current armor level. Yeah, -10 hurts a lot, but if they deal 32 damage at level 1, with a 39% bonus damage you're only dealing an extra 12 per hit. Now put that same bit at max level where you're taking a hero with 8 armor to -2, a net loss of 50% to taking 15% bonus damage. An 80 damage attack from some obligatory hero with +15% damage deals 12 bonus damage. Wait, what? Inconceivable! The bonus numbers from Ruin alone are the same! I rest my case.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by TargetPractice » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:52 pm

This isn't factoring that certain heroes can GAIN from being within a prison. For instance, go play Innert against Vela and use Spirit Burn when prison'd. Now blow that spirit. You just stole 150 life from something like 8 prison pieces. Full heal, anyone? Thank you, Vela!
That is totally irrelavent, unless your Innert, but Sozen? without blink or rapid assistance, dead. Rose, without blink or assistance, dead. Stille, dead, Ztera, most definately dead

Glyphe and a few others are fine, but the rest aren't, geez its only a small bit of life to make it so bone prison isnt an 70% guranteed kill

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Papa Dagon » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:58 pm

Hate to be a nitpicker, but Stille's actually better off than most heroes are. I can't remember the name of the move, but it flat out destroys any summoned unit, including bone prison. Rose is pretty good, too, considering she can just use that storm of arrows thing she has. Puts out enough damage to take the prison down pretty fast

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Oxygen » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:11 pm

Nice example of innacurate, useless, piece theorycraft we have here.

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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by Crevax » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:27 pm

TargetPractice wrote:
This isn't factoring that certain heroes can GAIN from being within a prison. For instance, go play Innert against Vela and use Spirit Burn when prison'd. Now blow that spirit. You just stole 150 life from something like 8 prison pieces. Full heal, anyone? Thank you, Vela!
That is totally irrelavent, unless your Innert, but Sozen? without blink or rapid assistance, dead. Rose, without blink or assistance, dead. Stille, dead, Ztera, most definately dead

Glyphe and a few others are fine, but the rest aren't, geez its only a small bit of life to make it so bone prison isnt an 70% guranteed kill
Unless you're stupid, the only reason Vela will be trapping Sozen is to get away. And if Sozen gets caught, it shouldn't take him long to kill one. Rose can do fairly well against the prison with her Crossfire. Stile just has to communion and he's free, and maybe even deal some nice damage to Vela and other enemies. If playing Ztera right, then Vela will either be too worried about Zuma to bother a lot with you, or vise versa.
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Re: 1.07 Discussion

Post by TargetPractice » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 pm

Crevax wrote:
TargetPractice wrote:
This isn't factoring that certain heroes can GAIN from being within a prison. For instance, go play Innert against Vela and use Spirit Burn when prison'd. Now blow that spirit. You just stole 150 life from something like 8 prison pieces. Full heal, anyone? Thank you, Vela!
That is totally irrelavent, unless your Innert, but Sozen? without blink or rapid assistance, dead. Rose, without blink or assistance, dead. Stille, dead, Ztera, most definately dead

Glyphe and a few others are fine, but the rest aren't, geez its only a small bit of life to make it so bone prison isnt an 70% guranteed kill
Unless you're stupid, the only reason Vela will be trapping Sozen is to get away. And if Sozen gets caught, it shouldn't take him long to kill one. Rose can do fairly well against the prison with her Crossfire. Stile just has to communion and he's free, and maybe even deal some nice damage to Vela and other enemies. If playing Ztera right, then Vela will either be too worried about Zuma to bother a lot with you, or vise versa.
Then I'm stupid

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