Valor & Zeal Gaming

our main coder came to the conclusion that our main theme, morale, would not work mathematically due to the wave-like nature of the units in an AoS.

Trollz is our main coder

It wouldn't work mathematically? Bollocks.

I would love to be convinced otherwise. Perhaps we can all talk about it a bit on B.net sometime?

If you have a problem with the map's design, you fix the problem, you don't give up on the map. That's a total cop-out; I can't believe Trollzies would do that. My availability on BNet has been severely reduced as of late, it'd likely be more productive to just have the discussion here.

well without Moral the project would be an empty AoS with a few interesting heroes. we've already been thinking about a new project to replace our moral-based AoS, so we technically aren't stopping, but I'd much rather see our original project see the light of b.net than work on a new project.
If we are to have this discussion in this thread I guess I should further explain my understanding of Trollz's discoveries towards the failure of a moral system in an AoS. What I gather is that since each unit (non-hero)'s future in an AoS is to ultimately die, the waves of troops would exchange a few points of moral but it would stay within a very small range and moral wouldn't snowball enough to be of any consequence. I am just now thinking that we could possibly fix this by altering the difference between Global and Local morale so that no matter if the wave dies, their companions who replace them will greater benefit from their achievements.

Okay. I don't think I've ever clarified this. It's not that there isn't a way to make Morale work - you can mess around with the mechanics, so that say, the first unit to get a kill in a wave greatly boosts nearby morale, and maybe, death gives a larger -morale if there are more corpses around. I'm not saying these are the paths to take, I'm simply giving examples of wonky mechanics that could be implemented. The problem with those mechanics though is just that - they are wonky. They don't serve a real purpose. The idea of morale as we envisioned it can either be a snowball generator or simply wonky enough that it doesn't serve a purpose.

EDIT: Also, I did decide that after about a year and a half of off and on work, different approaches, and tens of iterations and versions of the system, it was time to give up.

I'll offer a few words:

This project lost momentum, but it never had a great deal to begin with. Making a map is hard and takes awhile. It requires sustained effort. What was had were occasional bursts of enthusiasm ... it never quite got past the lots-of-ideas stage. Furthermore, I'm not sure Trollz was ever convinced that this was worth the time it would take to code, balance, and polish.

Morale is an interesting idea, but it would require a great deal of effort to get it to work properly. Yes, I know it seems like a simple case of math, but when you actually throw some formulae into the simulator ... it's hard to get it to do what you want it to do. With the effort it would take, plus the fact that it represents a third numerical variable attached universally to units and factions, it would have to be the central point of gameplay. And as the central point of gameplay, it would have to form the thematic foundation for the map as well.

I mean, it's fun and all, but I"m just not sure how well it works for AoS. The snowballing effect is problematic, and morale systems do not solve any of the problems AoSes already have. I think it could really work, but it needs to be in a different context. The usual lane-structured hero-driven AoS ... you'd think it'd fit, but really it just adds dead weight. I'm thinking something closer to Dynasty Warriors might work better—a single dynamic battlefield with events-driven tactical maneuvering centered around heroes ... but that's another map entirely. Right now, there are other projects in the works, some of which have the gleam of promise that FoT never quite managed.

Also, for the sake of clarification, Clan OVRD has no name, never had one, and never will have one.

Here-b-Trollz wrote:Okay. I don't think I've ever clarified this. It's not that there isn't a way to make Morale work - you can mess around with the mechanics, so that say, the first unit to get a kill in a wave greatly boosts nearby morale, and maybe, death gives a larger -morale if there are more corpses around. I'm not saying these are the paths to take, I'm simply giving examples of wonky mechanics that could be implemented. The problem with those mechanics though is just that - they are wonky. They don't serve a real purpose. The idea of morale as we envisioned it can either be a snowball generator or simply wonky enough that it doesn't serve a purpose.

EDIT: Also, I did decide that after about a year and a half of off and on work, different approaches, and tens of iterations and versions of the system, it was time to give up.

Really did you try the DoW approach (make it individual, replace mana with it perhaps)?

Here-b-Trollz wrote:Okay. I don't think I've ever clarified this. It's not that there isn't a way to make Morale work - you can mess around with the mechanics, so that say, the first unit to get a kill in a wave greatly boosts nearby morale, and maybe, death gives a larger -morale if there are more corpses around. I'm not saying these are the paths to take, I'm simply giving examples of wonky mechanics that could be implemented. The problem with those mechanics though is just that - they are wonky. They don't serve a real purpose. The idea of morale as we envisioned it can either be a snowball generator or simply wonky enough that it doesn't serve a purpose.

Silly Trollzies, you tried to fix the problem in the wrong way. If the problem exists and the only way to make it cool is to not use 'waves' of creeps, then you eliminate waves of creeps, you don't try to change the original idea. Make the spawns a constant stream instead of coming in waves. Simple, elegant, makes moral useful, makes it feel different, and is intuitive. There's no downside.

Mmmm.... I'll admit that I never thought of that. You definitely made me feel very small. Also, stupid. twinking...

(twink)

Just think about it in a logical way and consider the most elegant solution, it's not so troubling. I didn't mean to make you feel bad in any case. Sorry.

I'm still not sure if I'd want to go through with it - the project carries with it a feeling of failure... it and Doom were what kept me on bnet after the death of Tir, AotZ and the clan. But after spending so much time just trying to get it off the ground... I don't know that I want to waste any more time on something that holds so many less-than-good memories.

Also, I forgot to say, I'm not entirely convinced that a stream of creeps would help very much.

Oh, and twice I forgot to say: It's not your fault I'll feel bad, it's the above mentioned feelings of failage. Rather, you've made me feel GOOD. AotZ will always be great, and I will always enjoy playing it with the last remaining bnetters.

Here-b-Trollz wrote:AotZ will always be great, and I will always enjoy playing it with the last remaining bnetters.

How come so many people seem to think there aren't many people around B.net? There's lotsa people on, most of the time. oO

Scarlet wrote:How come so many people seem to think there aren't many people around B.net? There's lotsa people on, most of the time. oO

None of them are fun, though.

I had a an idea like this too, but i would use 2 kinds of morale.

First off the Base Morale, how the whole team is doing did you capture morale boosting buildings.
This could ofc give a snowball effect.

Then its for the Battlefield Moral, there you need also some skills that lower the moral for nearby troops or lower them. Maybe some skills are demoraling if you kill a unit with it. And if you push the Battlefield Morale the Base Moral will also increase.
Buying Seargents will increase or stop the moralfall of troops near it.

A simple idea to show Morale is increasining attack or decreasing it. Maybe even lower Spawns or reduce movementspeeds, there are alot values to chance. A hero near the troops is always inspiring, but if it dies the troops near them will die easily, or maybe even run away.

Being able to bring more units then the enemy is also an good idea, but if the troops are to weak you can fail and will loose to much morale.

Then it would be important to make the Troops strong enough to pull things off their own. And maybe make an Dynamic Spawnsystem, i made one as example:
You can choose the spawns to a maximum limit, each spawn has a point value. (So you have 5 Points per barrack you can either spam 5 weak units or 1-2 very strong ones)
Each Spawn also has an build time.
And you can choose on which lane it will run.

It works pretty neat, though your map wont be an aos anymore if you concentrate on all this. Atleast i think so.


I could continue like this for atleast 3-4 hours XD
Well to bad you guys dont really want to continue it, it would be an nice new idea.