Tower Defense Theory

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pandamanar
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Tower Defense Theory

Post by pandamanar » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:37 pm

I know it is well known that Tower Defense maps don't have much complexity or depth to speak of, but I'd like to start a debate about one of their more common traits. Is there any point to have selectable races in a TD? There are only so many roles a tower can fullfill, depending on the gameplay, and having multiple races ends up either accomplishing a bunch of races with towers that accomplish the same task (this one does dps, this one disables, this one does fire damage in an AoE!) or a bunch of races whose towers have the same role with increased numbers (Ice tower level 1, Ice tower level 2). How deep and complex can a tower defense map get, not counting the un-needed complexity that some modders believe can replace actually well thought-out gameplay mechanics. Is a truely unique tower defense possible? (besides tower defenses that try to meld genres, such as Mini-games + Tower defenses or Hero Survival + TD) Is there anything in this formal besides differing damage types, AoEs, attack speeds and, in some cases, health? Or is this genre doomed to be copy and pasted to death by mediocre map makers who mistake needless complexity for actual map making skill?
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Phox » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Would be nice if you hit 'return' once in a while.

But meh, I've seen a few quite decent TDs in my time, which have transcended the rest. Burbenog comes to mind. The problem arises in replayability: once you know which towers crush which wave, it just becomes an imperative to build enough of x tower before the flying, or armored, or fast, or whatever type of enemies spawn.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by pandamanar » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:26 pm

Phox wrote:Would be nice if you hit 'return' once in a while.
... are you saying I should have erased this post? I'm lost.
Also, I've never heard of Burbenog, but it sounds similar to many of the TDs I enjoy. They are fun, but not for the right reasons and end up being completed by that formula of which tower to build when so that you win. But I still wonder if its possible...
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by TheDeathstalker » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:34 pm

Well, there's a lot of points you're touching on, but I think the main one is how much variability is available in a TD. I'd say the answer is much akin to the variability in any genre. Your main variables are such:

* Damage
* Damage Types
* Armor
* Armor Types
* Attack Speed
* Range
* AoE
* Other Specials

Now, at first glance, the answer to your question is "no way in hell". There's absolutely no way to make a unique TD with only those variables, you just can't do it. Likewise if you have an AoS that only makes use of the standard Melee Skills or heroes, there's only so far that the game can go. But I think that's the problem with TDs, is that nobody's really pushed the envelope other than a handful of developers who try for a unique game in every TD. Zoator would have to be the prime example of this. He first made Zoator TD, which was a nice, standard TD that played nice, but wasn't unique. So he made others, such as Sprout TD and Switch TD, each of which added to the fundamental list of variables, in a way not seen before or since really.

Now, was what he did the apex of the TD genre? Not by a long shot. There are ideas and concepts out there that could produce amazing TDs that defy the standard rules of predictable outcomes. Tower Wars and Random Tower Games (such as Poker TD and Gem TD) are attempts at this, but are imperfect ones.

I theorized about a unique Tower Defense once that involved a team vs team aesthetic, in a loosely AoS type design, where each player has a hero with his own set of towers (plausibly some overlap), and the goal is to stop units that spawn from the other team's base from reaching your own, all the while having an added AoS layer to the game, where it's not just you in a vacuum, but you most directly competing against the other team. I never got very far with the actual production of this idea, but it stands in my mind as an example of what could come of the TD genre, given the right ideas.

If you're still not convinced, look back to old old AoS games, and ask yourself how many variables they had to work with, then look at something like DoE, where additional variables have been theorized and given form to create a much more interesting and dynamic game.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Phox » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:09 pm

pandamanar wrote:
Phox wrote:Would be nice if you hit 'return' once in a while.
... are you saying I should have erased this post? I'm lost.
I'm saying you posted a wall of text that would be easier to read if you broke it up.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Oxygen » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:37 pm

The problem with tower defenses is that you can either:

a) Kill the creeps
b) Not kill the creeps

Tower defenses are very proactive, and very reactive. The problem is that they lack the most important part: the active one. Your decisions influence the outcome of the game, and the outcome influences decisions, but not your actual "skill" (micromanagement) as a player, which is to say, almost nothing.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by paper tree » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:01 pm

Death they kind of have a TD like that, please tell me you have played possession TD. that was really the only unique and fun TD ive played. standard TD at the start, as people leaked you gained creeps which could be used to help with killing your creeps, or attack another teams. could mix n match any 2 races(most of which were pretty different, one involving only summons and no mazing). each team also had a tower that could possess creeps to build your own force. and it wasn't just every X levels this is going to happen. they had waves where they would spirit link/heal/bloodlust/slow nearby towers. but the main draw was how you could directly attack a opponent. build in their maze to have creeps kill the towers, send your own creeps to kill their towers, even some towers were made to kill other towers. but other than possession i hate all other TDs.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by TheDeathstalker » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:17 pm

I actually did not very much enjoy Possession TD, and I'd have to chalk that up to largely the map not being very clear or smooth. You could be doing fine, mazing well, and surviving the levels, but the idea of creeps attacking your towers at any point defeats the idea of a Tower Defense, in which your maze is just that, a maze. If you can cut down the hedge walls of a maze, then it's purpose quickly diminishes.

Possession TD was interesting, but an incomplete, and rough idea. There was no real flow of creeps hitting you, in fact, if I recall correctly, the winning strategy was to do jack shit til you've got a big enough army, then zerg them down (albeit, if you wait too long they can have a stronger maze, but the point stands). The creeps should really never be player controlled, in my opinion. That's just too much potential for disaster, and really kills the mapmaker's ability to predict outcomes and plan for them.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Av3n » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:29 pm

Legion TD is another TD that has pushed the common bounds IMO. But it's only your towers turning into units but it's fun.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Loki » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:34 pm

The fun TDs I ever played was probably the TD mini-game in PE and Stackerz.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:33 am

If I made a TD, I'd make one where you had to build towers to defeat bosses of the quality of OD bosses. So you'd have to lure bosses through intricate pathways, find spots you could build, throw walling towers in front of them, use the towers to aggro the bosses, and then fight the bosses with your heroes. (Who would also be the builders) You might use certain players to distract while the rest built up an armada of towers to shoot him to death. You might need to set up a base camp of towers and attack the boss from behind it. You might need to build a trebuchet tower and shoot your hero out of it at mach ten at the boss's forehead. Who knows, but it'd be crazy. (I always imagine this boss when I think of this idea)

Try to think of stuff that reinvents the way the TD is played, don't think of gimmicks to make your TD cute for only the first dozen plays and then boring thereafter.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by TheDeathstalker » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:37 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:If I made a TD, I'd make one where you had to build towers to defeat bosses of the quality of OD bosses. So you'd have to lure bosses through intricate pathways, find spots you could build, throw walling towers in front of them, use the towers to aggro the bosses, and then fight the bosses with your heroes. (Who would also be the builders) You might use certain players to distract while the rest built up an armada of towers to shoot him to death. You might need to set up a base camp of towers and attack the boss from behind it. You might need to build a trebuchet tower and shoot your hero out of it at mach ten at the boss's forehead. Who knows, but it'd be crazy. (I always imagine this boss when I think of this idea)

Try to think of stuff that reinvents the way the TD is played, don't think of gimmicks to make your TD cute for only the first dozen plays and then boring thereafter.
I think that'd be absolutely amazing to play, but know you've already got a ton on your plate... you should whore that map out to someone else you know to be good though, it'd be fun to play.

At the same time, half the time I play TDs is to unwind, as opposed to AoS games and those like this which are for pure asskicking. Although, there's plenty of room in the genre for both, and there's more than enough to laid back ones out there already.

Actually, I think that's why I love a good TD so much, is it's like a good ol' crossword or Sudoku. Nothing particularly challenging, but it's something moderately mentally engaging that I can do to unwind. Really the only one that falls into this category and doesn't stand the chance of having a teammate screw me over is Gem TD... but it is plenty fun.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by pandamanar » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:11 am

A friend of mine made a TD that I enjoyed, where your job was to build up a camp to defend against a roaming horde of undead. it was entertaining, but lacked a lot of depth, since each tower kind of accomplished the same deal.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Deschain » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:02 pm

Best idea about making TD is this: Don't make TD;
1. Play a game you enjoy which isn't TD, hell don't even play a warcraft 3 or games at all just do something that inspires you
2. Try to somehow translate that feeling into a TD
3. Make some initial sketches
4. Take a look from afar and ask yourself what needs adding/removing
5. Add/remove things as you find fit.
6. Go to step 1
When you are happy with your design you quit this vicious cycle.

One of the most innovative TD I played was one in which you didn't set towers; Oh, no you set up traps like sliders, bouncers, slings, lures and pitfalls and use that to overcome your enemies Home Alone style. By chaining your traps (Lure-> Activates bees -> Activates slider -> activate dinamite) you would achieve combo and with it more gold and thus more things to upgrade, etc.
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Re: Tower Defense Theory

Post by Kurogamon » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:07 pm

Gridlock TD is enjoyable. Your builder is the killable unit every creep is chasing, and there are special levels where you running around is hindered. Pretty fun, and more active than most TD's.
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