The Scout Update

[TheLegendReborn]

The biggest issue with the Sandman that it completely broke away from the melee unlockable pattern that was established by Valve in the previous 3 updates. Whilst the melee unlocks have all been pretty much seen as upgrades but at the same time very slight upgrades in the long run due to the drawbacks they bring during their usage. In theory I don't believe that it makes the red team or blue team stronger on cp maps but it does change the whole game balance in the sense that the medic becomes more and more like a glorified dispenser. However dealing with sentry guns with a team that truly works together didn't become any worse because Bonk! allows a scout to tank the sentry fire.

In the end I think Sandman should be scrapped and something else should be put in its place. Also Bonk! needs to be buffed because the uber's place isn't challenged anymore by the Sandman.

[Cold Phoenix]

Bonk! is can be very good for countering ubers. Drink it up, go run and block the uber pair's movement. Works even better in close hallways where they can't maneuver past you.

For the Sandman, stun just won't fit in this game. Sure it takes skill to hit with the baseballs, but once you do your opponent's skill is taken out of the equation while you do what you want with them. I'd be fine with it if it was something like a 90% slowdown as long as your opponent could still fire back at you. Also it shouldn't affect ubers, it's just silly. As a stun it is free kill a good 3/4 of the time, especially on weaker classes.

[Loki]

The Sandman is what removes the double jump yes?

And FAN takes away what? 25% movement speed? Yet people get by since the retardation of stun. Not a fair trade-off.

What do you mean by the Sandman is retarded?

Other than the fact that it stuns? It's a freaking FPS even you should have understood the stupidity of the Sandman.
You even said it yourself lol

Sandman: Overpowered, but stun is going to be overpowered in an fps no matter what you do to it.

Yes, it's retarded.

[ReDSeX]

Let me get this straight:
You can auto-kill by meleeing them in the back?
You can juggle people with rockets?
You can practically insta-kill with sticky-bombs?
You can become completely invincible for 10 seconds?
You can make an auto-aim bot that shoots 4 rockets?

Holy shit none of that should be in an FPS.

[Loki]

You can auto-kill by meleeing them in the back?

Ahh, the flaws of criticals.. Unless you are talking about the spy.

You can juggle people with rockets?

I have never seen an instance where that has happened unless it was an aimbot which of course is a bannable offense.

You can practically insta-kill with sticky-bombs?

If you are stupid enough to not remove the already placed stickies, or you just stand still and hope that whatever weapon your using would kill the demoman.

You can become completely invincible for 10 seconds?

In most cases, you are using it to charge into a base, destroy the defense and allow your team to get through. But half the time, the uber fails and wasted.

You can make an auto-aim bot that shoots 4 rockets?

Read the first comment. I don't even know why you would bring up hacks in the first place. Might as well call out Wc3 and go "You can make a maphack that allows you to see all the resources and strategies your enemies are making."
But we all know that that's not allowed. Amirite?

[shalnath]

He's talking about the sentry.

[ReDSeX]

You can auto-kill by meleeing them in the back?

Ahh, the flaws of criticals.. Unless you are talking about the spy.

Yes, I'm talking about the spy.

You can juggle people with rockets?

I have never seen an instance where that has happened unless it was an aimbot which of course is a bannable offense.

Then you've never played against a good soldier. If a soldier know what he's doing he can shoot the ground and throw you into the air. Since you're falling, he knows exactly where you're going to land and shoots the ground just as you're about to touch the ground, throwing you up into the air and starting the whole process over.

Almost as crippling as a stun-lock. It's disorienting, damage heavy, and for the most cases, much LONGER than sandman's stun.
It can end in a kill pretty quick. S

Shouldn't be in an FPS.

You can practically insta-kill with sticky-bombs?

If you are stupid enough to not remove the already placed stickies, or you just stand still and hope that whatever weapon your using would kill the demoman.

What if there's like 297987432 billion sticky's on a choke point? Can't even notice.

Shouldn't be in an FPS.

You can become completely invincible for 10 seconds?

In most cases, you are using it to charge into a base, destroy the defense and allow your team to get through. But half the time, the uber fails and wasted.

The initial chaos of a shit-ton of scouts is coming close to an end. It's kinda rare to see more than 2 scouts in a game now. If you're playing with a half-way decent team, the sandman shouldn't be able to do all that much damage if you're sticking close to your allys.
1v1
Sandman Scout > Heavy
2v2
2 Sandman scouts < 2 heavys
# vs. 3
# Sandman scouts < 3 anything

Nowadays, the scenario with the sandman looks like this:
Early half of the game a scout stuns an enemy and kills them. 1 kill for the scout! Wewt.
Rest of the game, team gets smart and sticks together. Greatest counter to sandman is teamwork.

Most sandman attempts end in failure after one kill.

You can make an auto-aim bot that shoots 4 rockets?

Read the first comment. I don't even know why you would bring up hacks in the first place. Might as well call out Wc3 and go "You can make a maphack that allows you to see all the resources and strategies your enemies are making."
But we all know that that's not allowed. Amirite?

[/quote]

I'm talking about Engineer's sentry.
Shouldn't be in an FPS.

I don't know why you're crying so much. The sandman is fine. It needs some tweaking, but the overall concept and design makes for a great trade-off. The lack of double jump can easily spell disaster for a scout. With the scout's unlocks, his overrall lack of mobility takes away from the scout's greatest weapon: his speed. The sandman takes away his ability to double jump, and to compensate, they added the FaN. Adds a great extra jump, but also makes you move 25% slower.

I'd get into this more but I have school.
The sandman and the rest of the scout's unlocks make for an even trade-off.
Sandman, although a great nub-killing weapon, is an even weapon. Well, in design at least. Keep the stun but tweak it I say.

[TheLegendReborn]

Redsex you are looking at balance in the most rudimentary way. Balance isn't just x class vs. y class, it's the balance between the classes and their roles. Sure the unlockables were to make the classes more mailable but it wasn't to change the game to a point to warp balance entirely. This hurts the game two times as much when it's the medic's role that is hurt because why should I be a medic when most of the time a crap scout can just counter me?

Your basis for saying the scout update is fine and dandy is that it hinders the scout's play in comparison to what he could do initially but the who reason for unlocks isn't to keep a class playing exactly as it was before thus the argument that using the unlocks doesn't let you do x, y, z like before is like complaining that you can't go invulnerable with the kritzkreig.

[Loki]

Then you've never played against a good soldier. If a soldier know what he's doing he can shoot the ground and throw you into the air. Since you're falling, he knows exactly where you're going to land and shoots the ground just as you're about to touch the ground, throwing you up into the air and starting the whole process over.

Come talk to the players at Towelies or JLM. Also, the bounce from rocket explosion is not even high unless you are a crouch jump spammer but most players use that bounce as their advantage and shoot while in the air.
I don't even know why you try to make it sound like Sandman when all there is WHACK-LOLSTUN-/gangrape

What if there's like 297987432 billion sticky's on a choke point? Can't even notice.

That's like saying there are players on or near a chokepoint and you couldn't see them, that shouldn't be in an FPS?

the sandman shouldn't be able to do all that much damage if you're sticking close to your allys.

Then you and your allies must suck at taking opportunities. No offense.

I'm talking about Engineer's sentry.

My bad :x
But.. I don't see a problem with Sentries in an FPS like TF2 which is different from most FPS games, you can easily get around them and use your timing to pick them off with quick sticky drops or rocket's splash. Or just barrel roll through them with an uber.

Finally, your last paragraph offends me that you are going to resort that argument where you think I'm crying rather as opposed trying to build up my argument, you can be better than that. You bring out points in TF2 that shouldn't be in a FPS, but then you get all lax on the stun on the Sandman? I don't understand at all.

[Cold Phoenix]

Are Towlies and JLM servers? If so you should post the IP's.

The frequently used "Use teamwork so Sandman won't kill you" argument is flawed. Guess what, the Scout has a team too. Since the update there have been many times where I have worked with a clanmate when they stunned a player and I took the few seconds of opportunity to headshot them. Teamwork goes both ways so you can't use it as a point.

Your sticky argument buries itself.

For sentries, I agree with you to a certain extent.

You seem to be ignoring the point by saying other random things don't fit.

[Loki]

Just poke me a message on Steam and I'll give you the IPs, don't trust some of the lurkers that come in here for paranoid reasons.

[Mako]

I resent that remark fully Loki. You can trust me, despite my lurker-dom.