On the Topic of Homosexuality

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Kurogamon
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Kurogamon » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:31 pm

vesuvan wrote:Natural = Dying to diseases
Unnatural = Not dying to diseases
Epic win.
andriejj wrote:You can say that the faith is intolerent, but you can also say that homosexuals are intolerant, because they disrespect a deeply rooted religious tradition.
And you have exemplified one of the biggest reasons I am a staunch atheist. Saying that is like saying that Jonas Salk is disrespecting a deeply rooted tradition of children being crippled by Polio as a part of normal life by curing it. Saying that is like saying that the person advocating for cancer research is disrespecting the millions of years it took for nature to f*ck with man's body and ironically causing our advancement through mutation and change. Saying that is like saying exactly what many trusted members of the church once said, that progress is satanic. At least one guy attempted to have reading the bible banned, because reading gave rise to free thought, which gave rise to heresy. This is the blatant obstruction of progress, usually for no reason other than fear of the unknown and of the new. And don't get started on the "benefits" of being religious.

I dislike practices usually for no other reason than the fact that they attempt to force their beliefs and practices onto me. It's the Us vs. Them mentality. There is no middle ground in the minds of competitors. You either believe, or don't believe in that cause. For homosexuality, I have nothing wrong with it, because I try to make myself think rationally when I'm overcome by a need to be disgusted. Of course, it's impossible to eliminate the xenophobia imprinted from childhood, because heterosexuality is just a much more common sight. If they bother me and make me uncomfortable, I will lash back, and it will be interpreted as intolerance, when in fact it is the ones who attempt to force their ideas upon others that are being intolerant of personal belief.
Deschain wrote:Here in Serbia, an Ortodox Christian country, homosexuality is on a same level of social level as consensual incest between brother-sister siblings (there are no legal consequences only social ones).
In every culture there are taboos. This does not mean it applies to the entire world.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:02 am

Kurogamon wrote:And you have exemplified one of the biggest reasons I am a staunch atheist. Saying that is like saying that Jonas Salk is disrespecting a deeply rooted tradition of children being crippled by Polio as a part of normal life by curing it. Saying that is like saying that the person advocating for cancer research is disrespecting the millions of years it took for nature to f*ck with man's body and ironically causing our advancement through mutation and change. Saying that is like saying exactly what many trusted members of the church once said, that progress is satanic. At least one guy attempted to have reading the bible banned, because reading gave rise to free thought, which gave rise to heresy. This is the blatant obstruction of progress, usually for no reason other than fear of the unknown and of the new.
You can always make up some ridiculous examples. But what I said is truth and does exist. Among the common Eastern European people homosexual relations just are wrong. Through jokes, tradition, religion and other factors. On Poland's example, "gej", "pedał", "ciota" (all words meaning a homosexual person) are commonly used as insults. That's our culture, won't change in a blink of an eye.
Kurogamon wrote:And don't get started on the "benefits" of being religious.
Looking at this sentence, you seem to be that 'offensive' type of atheist. First you tell us how dumb, irrational and intolerant religion is, now you refuse any possible advantages of it. That's disrespectful and intolerant, you know?
Kurogamon wrote:I dislike practices usually for no other reason than the fact that they attempt to force their beliefs and practices onto me. It's the Us vs. Them mentality. There is no middle ground in the minds of competitors. You either believe, or don't believe in that cause.
Applies to you very well. Religion is stupid, period. The problem here, sadly, is that the modern societies are a groups of individuals, family and other ties are weakening. There are some exceptions, like the Italian mother-son tie, which traditionally is very strong, or the very tight relations in business of the "third Italy". And all those places with strong, regional patriotism, Silesia, for example. Big cities are usually the worst. Now what does it have to do with religion? It does, because most organised religions are organised into communities. But if people don't want to be a part of a bigger thing, how can that succeed? There's a huge group of people who believe, but don't attend, because they have their own 'way to God'. They believe in their own, unique way (they think it is unique) and see the church as an unnecessary institution. And I somewhat agree, because I see no sense in repeating shit over and over. That's discipline, not faith.
Kurogamon wrote:For homosexuality, I have nothing wrong with it, because I try to make myself think rationally when I'm overcome by a need to be disgusted. Of course, it's impossible to eliminate the xenophobia imprinted from childhood, because heterosexuality is just a much more common sight. If they bother me and make me uncomfortable, I will lash back, and it will be interpreted as intolerance, when in fact it is the ones who attempt to force their ideas upon others that are being intolerant of personal belief.
I agree, I really hate when people try to change my personal beliefs. Btw, a week ago 2 mormons from America approached me on the street. I've read the leaflet and it seems like they established a mission in Warsaw, lol.
Kurogamon wrote:In every culture there are taboos. This does not mean it applies to the entire world.
Did Deschain say it does? He just said it's like that in Serbia. Your disrespect towards cultural heritage is worrying me.

Oh and I skipped that incent when Deschain first wrote it. A bit offtopic, but whatever. Incest is a whole other cup of tea. It's wrong not only because that's how most cultures view it, it's biologically wrong. If you don't believe it, look at the case of Sweden and numerous cases in the wild life, especially in closed nature reserves.

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by vesuvan » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:25 am

Looking at this sentence, you seem to be that 'offensive' type of atheist. First you tell us how dumb, irrational and intolerant religion is, now you refuse any possible advantages
There are no possible advantages of religion.

None.

We've considered them, and comfort through delusion and spiritual blackmail into serving the religion are not advantageous in any way.
of it. That's disrespectful and intolerant, you know?
Disrespect is not a bad thing. It is required to distinguish ideas that have no merit and to spare people the time of listening to people with a history of producing such ideas.

Intolerance is not a bad thing. It is required to distinguish concepts that do not deserve unique protection from criticism, IE; everything.
That's discipline, not faith.
Discipline is a good thing, it allows people to make the decision to do things that they will be uncomfortable with if they wish.

Faith is not a good thing, it disallows people to make decisions.
I agree, I really hate when people try to change my personal beliefs
Your beliefs change to be congruent with new information.

Your beliefs are valuable.

Pick one, they are mutually exclusive.
Your disrespect towards cultural heritage is worrying me.
Many arbitrary things can worry a person. Your worry is not a referenced variable in this discussion.

There is nothing necessarily good about cultural heritage, ergo, that is no basis for respect or tolerance.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Kurogamon » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:31 am

andriejj wrote:Looking at this sentence, you seem to be that 'offensive' type of atheist. First you tell us how dumb, irrational and intolerant religion is, now you refuse any possible advantages of it. That's disrespectful and intolerant, you know?
I've considered them, and now I believe they are not true benefits. I used to believe that it had value in making you happy. No more. It's an empty faith that is too insubstantial to lean on except in the most devout cases, and even then, saying a religious man is happier than an atheist is no more to the point than saying that a drunk man is happier than a sober man. It's a delusion, and blackmail as vesuvan said.
andriejj wrote:It's really hard to talk with you
andriejj wrote:Vesuvan misunderstood me and intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted my post.
andriejj wrote:I'm afraid that in 50 years kids in schools will be taught that homosexualism is something natural and should be thoroughly accepted and homosexual relationships are equal to their heterosexual counterparts. It's not natural. Natural = man + woman.
andriejj wrote:That's disrespectful and intolerant, you know?
~_~

andriejj wrote:You can always make up some ridiculous examples.
The bible banned part is true. Lemme find his name or title.
andriejj wrote:That's our culture, won't change in a blink of an eye.
And if a large enough population becomes gay and civil war and stuff happens, Chinese Cultural Revolution much?


I would like everyone to remember that grudges which come into being in this thread stay in this thread.

Also, you overuse the word "wrong". Some better choices, such as for the remark on incest, would be "counterproductive", "impractical", "harmful", or "useless". "Wrong" doesn't tell much. I won't blame for language problems though, English is not your first language, right?
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:44 am

It isn't. But as for incenst, it is wrong, impractical and whatever you want. Sweden in the first half of XX century - poor country, a set of poorly communicated small communities, with the same families mixing their genes over many years. That resulted in the highest psychical illness ratio in Europe, even some mutations happenned, like additional limbs. The state of the population was tragic. When they figured out why is it like that, they made 2 things. They cut down some trees and made real roads. They opened their borders and got a big influx of foreigners. Now they're considered as one of the countries with the biggest human and social capital.

And I didn't refer to Bible banning, I refered to the other examples. I won't comment the gay revolution bullshit >_>

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Kurogamon » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:33 pm

It appears we've run out of things to argue about!
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Greenspawn » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:32 am

Homosexuality is a choice, up entirely to the person who decides to make it, and nobody should be told that their orientation is "wrong", "unnatural", or against "what's right". If you happen to have a homosexual orientation, or even a bisexual one, that SHOULD be absolutely fine with everyone! I have nothing against homosexuality or bisexuality; in fact, I have a homosexual friend, and three bisexual friends, and we all get along great.

Here's the thing; just because someone of the same sex as you are is gay DOESN'T mean that he has feelings towards you! Look at heterosexual guys and girls; not every heterosexual girl has feelings for guys, or vice versa.

And no matter how many homosexuals there are, it will never be taught in schools. Ever. This is because teachers are not allowed to impress on their students any view that might be construed as "right" or "moral". They will simply teach students about the male and female anatomy, or about Freudian views on sexual desire. They will never EVER say to a student "Man + Woman = Correct". They will say that it allows for the creation of new life, but the "correct" choice of partner for simple sexual pleasure will never be mentioned.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:00 pm

Epic resurrect. I admire you.

Homosexuality = Incest. Except there are no babies. Discuss.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Oxygen » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:10 pm

Deschain wrote:Epic resurrect. I admire you.

Homosexuality = Incest. Except there are no babies. Discuss.
Wait, what?

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:18 am

Homosexuals can't have babies last time I checked. Only those that changed their gender can.

Basically homosexuality usually has the same status (both social and legislative) as incest.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:04 pm

Deschain wrote:Basically homosexuality usually has the same status (both social and legislative) as incest.
In islamic states?

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:27 pm

Usually, if one is allowed then so is the other, or opposite. There are probably some exceptions, like old Egypt where royals inbreeding was a tradition.

If the sex is consensual, why would it matter if the persons involved share gender or genes?
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:49 pm

Deschain wrote:Homosexuals can't have babies last time I checked. Only those that changed their gender can.

Basically homosexuality usually has the same status (both social and legislative) as incest.
Are you just randomly typing whatever you find when google searching homosexuality. You presented an arguement that homosexuality and incest are the same when in fact the very definition of "incest"is when inbreeding occurs while it is either illegal and/or a social taboo,whereas I'm pretty sure homosexuality isn't exactly illegal here in the states, unless I'm just not keeping up with politics as well as I should and in many places in the world,socially acceptable, even in many of the current world power militaries.

You seem to be jumping around with subjects as if, we're not seeing whoever it is you're arguing with. Just because sex is consensual, doesn't make it morally right,if a 80 year old guy has sex with a 13 year old girl and there was consent from both parties,that doesn't make it right.

Now incest or inbreeding grew to eventually become taboo,because while it may have kept the wealth and power in the family,i.e. ancient Egypt, ancient tribes of northern Asia,even the royal family of not so old England,it was later learned that the end result brings about dire affects(mutations in the genes of offspring). Homosexuality grew to be taboo, because it resulted of a sexual act with no offspring which was seen going as against both the laws of nature and the will of God.

And no, even if someone gets a complete gender reassignment they cannot have babies. A guy cannot produce eggs. A woman cannot produce sperm cells which can penetrate eggs. Not to mention if there are two gay guys and one becomes a woman,does that make the other guy still gay?
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Jericho Veronus wrote:Are you just randomly typing whatever you find when google searching homosexuality. You presented an arguement that homosexuality and incest are the same when in fact the very definition of "incest"is when inbreeding occurs while it is either illegal and/or a social taboo,whereas I'm pretty sure homosexuality isn't exactly illegal here in the states, unless I'm just not keeping up with politics as well as I should and in many places in the world,socially acceptable, even in many of the current world power militaries.

You seem to be jumping around with subjects as if, we're not seeing whoever it is you're arguing with. Just because sex is consensual, doesn't make it morally right,if a 80 year old guy has sex with a 13 year old girl and there was consent from both parties,that doesn't make it right.
No. Just randomly typed what came to my mind.

I believed, that when both are banned they carry the same amount of social and legislative punishment. But I was wrong. Moving on.
Jericho Veronus wrote: And no, even if someone gets a complete gender reassignment they cannot have babies. A guy cannot produce eggs. A woman cannot produce sperm cells which can penetrate eggs. Not to mention if there are two gay guys and one becomes a woman,does that make the other guy still gay?
Yes, they can have babies if they kept their reproductional tract. For example a woman can change her gender to male and still give birth to a baby, if she keeps her uterus.

Technically, yes. If you are a man that changed his gender, you are merely looking like a woman, not really a woman. Laws may treat you like a woman and you look like one but you are still a man since you have XY chromosome.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:44 pm

Deschain wrote:Yes, they can have babies if they kept their reproductional tract. For example a woman can change her gender to male and still give birth to a baby, if she keeps her uterus.

Technically, yes. If you are a man that changed his gender, you are merely looking like a woman, not really a woman. Laws may treat you like a woman and you look like one but you are still a man since you have XY chromosome.
It takes more than simply the uterus to give birth, if a woman gets gender reconstruction to become a man,it involves the closing of the vagina in forming a penis and artifical testicle sack, otherwise it's simply gender reassignment to become a hermaphrodite, not the opposite sex. And the technicality of the XY chromosome still doesn't explain if the partner is gay, since they are changing their sex and homosexuality is being attracted to someone of the same sex.

By your logic if a girl walks by a guy and he thinks she's hot,but it turns out the girl was at one point a guy who got full gender reassignment reconstruction,then that makes the guy automatically gay
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