On the Topic of Homosexuality

[VZBushkiller20]

Vesu, I'd love to continue this conversation, but that's not what this threads about. Maybe in some other topic.

[Crevax]

I saw we make a new thread about it. I would love to join in on this conversation. Just don't let it transcend to a flame war.

[Echonian]

Your sexual orientation should be a personal choice just as anything else. Trying to say its wrong based on religion is fundamentally flawed because of the fact that in the US at least its supposed to be seperate from law. Sure, you can't technically reproduce with another man, but that may actually be doing the world a favor right now with overpopulation as high in the world as it is now.

I personally think it can be gross, but that is personal preference. Homosexuals probably see homosexual things as attractive, its all personal choice and opinion. As long as they aren't harming anyone else or disgusting anyone else too much nobody should have the right to say whether or not they can not make their own choices on the matter.

Of course, religion quite apparently rules this country in many ways even when its supposed to be seperate. I find abortion and homosexual descrimination to be largely influenced by lawmakers and the high % of the christian population in the country, among other things.

[VZhitogoroshi]

Ung. Guys, I'm not saying that Leviticus came after the pope. What I'm saying is that catholics pick and choose from the old testament what is LAW (see: a couple lines about homosexuals) and what we don't actually need to follow anymore. So while we can argue till we're blue in the face about God and the Bible, there is no denying that what we follow from the old testament is entirely dictated by a man (who decided what parts of the Old Testament "still count". So it's a FACT that your stance on homosexuals is entirely dictated by a single person, who perhaps wore a large hat.

[TheIrishPatriot]

Ung. Guys, I'm not saying that Leviticus came after the pope. What I'm saying is that catholics pick and choose from the old testament what is LAW (see: a couple lines about homosexuals) and what we don't actually need to follow anymore. So while we can argue till we're blue in the face about God and the Bible, there is no denying that what we follow from the old testament is entirely dictated by a man (who decided what parts of the Old Testament "still count". So it's a FACT that your stance on homosexuals is entirely dictated by a single person, who perhaps wore a large hat.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was actually a good reason why we picked some books and not others?

[vesuvan]

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was actually a good reason why we picked some books and not others?

Apparently not. Maybe you would like to explain to us why Leviticus should be taken as anything but an artifact of barbaric morals. I assume you do know what else is written in Leviticus besides the small mention of homosexuality.

[The Colonel]

One thing that I don't get is; God is perfect and all knowing right? Why doesn't he make a book that works perfectly through out all time, and has only one perfect interpretation. Why does he need to make many books, then as time goes, on omit parts? They should be perfect.

[VZBushkiller20]

Irish, the main problem I have with you using the Old Testament isn't even the fact that it's mixing religion and state. It's hypocritical! Christianity basically threw out the Old Testament with Paul. Do you keep kosher? Do you celebrate the holidays of the old testament? Do you follow "an eye for an eye" and every disrespectful kid should be stoned?

If you don't, you can't use the Old Testament to back up your statements.

[TheIrishPatriot]

The old testament isn't the only place. Romans, Corinthians, it's reaffirmed that God doesn't like this stuff.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was actually a good reason why we picked some books and not others?
Apparently not. Maybe you would like to explain to us why Leviticus should be taken as anything but an artifact of barbaric morals. I assume you do know what else is written in Leviticus besides the small mention of homosexuality.

Religious laws governing the Jewish people, concerning purity, worship, sacrifices, etc. The Christians only used books in the old testament that the Jews had already been using for a long time. If you don't like us using it, take it up with them, we appreciate what they laid down. Barbaric? Like the laws forbidding incest? What's wrong with them, not letting you have sex with your mom, eh?

One thing that I don't get is; God is perfect and all knowing right? Why doesn't he make a book that works perfectly through out all time, and has only one perfect interpretation. Why does he need to make many books, then as time goes, on omit parts? They should be perfect.

Bolded. He doesn't make the books, we do. We use fallible means to attempt to understand an infallible thing. Why doesn't He drop a book out of the sky? Hey, why doesn't he just show up and prove to us all that he exists? Why doesn't He do any number of things that would help us ever so much?....I dunno. I think I skipped that religion class.*

*You NEVER learn anything useful in high school, Catholic religion. It's like some neo-Christianity hippy stuff that has very little relation to the Bible. To be sure, its written by, or at least sponsored or something? by some bishops, but man, its the most watered down stuff ever. C.S. Lewis should be prescribed reading for the course, not this stuff.

Edit: Changed the "Fallible means" part to make it clearer, as it could be taken way off.

[vesuvan]

Religious laws governing the Jewish people, concerning purity, worship, sacrifices, etc. The Christians only used books in the old testament that the Jews had already been using for a long time. If you don't like us using it, take it up with them, we appreciate what they laid down.

You use the word "us" then the word "them". Be consistent, because I am taking it up with you right now.

Secondly, how could you possibly appreciate all the "wonderful accomplishments" of the jewish people? I'm sure all the genocides and burnings of philosophical texts that they found is something to be proud of. Do you have a clue how far back humanity in general was set by the jewish destruction of cultures much older and much more advanced than theirs?

That isn't even factoring in the legacy of Judaism. If this moses actually existed, he is probably responsible for more deaths than any other single human being.

Barbaric? Like the laws forbidding incest? What's wrong with them, not letting you have sex with your mom, eh?

I love this logic. Hey, let me try; Hitler believed in evolution, evolution is a proven theory, everything Hitler said is right!

Every culture in the world has social rules regarding sex, violence, and dishonesty. It is nothing unique or enlightened, and certainly doesn't root from holy texts.

C.S. Lewis should be prescribed reading for the course

And so should Sam Harris.

[TheIrishPatriot]

Did I say wonderful accomplishments?

We put Leviticus into our Old Testament because they had been using it and thus, we consider it worthy! "All scripture is God breathed."

Barbaric? Like the laws forbidding incest? What's wrong with them, not letting you have sex with your mom, eh?
I love this logic. Hey, let me try; Hitler believed in evolution, evolution is a proven theory, everything Hitler said is right!

Every culture in the world has social rules regarding sex, violence, and dishonesty. It is nothing unique or enlightened, and certainly doesn't root from holy texts.

Sorry?

C.S. Lewis should be prescribed reading for the course
And so should Sam Harris.

Sure, why not, we need to see both viewpoints, or we're just dogmatic. The Muslims wouldn't like it though...

[VZBushkiller20]

The old testament isn't the only place. Romans, Corinthians, it's reaffirmed that God doesn't like this stuff.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was actually a good reason why we picked some books and not others?
Apparently not. Maybe you would like to explain to us why Leviticus should be taken as anything but an artifact of barbaric morals. I assume you do know what else is written in Leviticus besides the small mention of homosexuality.

Religious laws governing the Jewish people, concerning purity, worship, sacrifices, etc. The Christians only used books in the old testament that the Jews had already been using for a long time. If you don't like us using it, take it up with them, we appreciate what they laid down. Barbaric? Like the laws forbidding incest? What's wrong with them, not letting you have sex with your mom, eh?

Yes...but do you actually follow all those laws? Tell me honestly, do you eat pork? If so...your as much an abhorrence as you consider homosexuals. Right now you're just being hypocritical.

And Vesu...you've just pissed me off. What the hell are you talking about Genocides? As far as I know...the Jewish people have never had the strength to perform Genocides. I am sorry...but what the hell are you talking about? Moses killing people? If you're going by the Torah/Old Testament, most of the time the Jewish people requested passageway, but were denied and attacked. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as self-defense. And even then, WHO THE twink CARES?! Do I care what my ancestors did more 3000 years ago? Not in the slightest.

What am I talking about! I'm sorry...Of course JEWS have been the persecutors. I mean, we started the crusades and tried to wipe out Christianity. It's the Jews who are trying to bring down the western world in holy Jihad. It's the Jews who wanted to destroy Germany. Don't forget, we also have horns and tales. And we eat babies!

Seriously vesu, you're attitude is as annoying as Irish's. Want some wonderful accomplishments? Look up Spinoza. Look up Maimonides. Look up Rothschild. These are all famous Jews, and trust me they have accomplishments. Now get your facts straight or shut up.

[vesuvan]

Bush, I was replying to patriots comment that he appreciated what was laid down in the old testament. I hope you don't think that my comments had anything to do with what the jewish people have done as a whole, my issue is just with the old testament. Keeping onto the Torah is akin to Germany being proud of the holocaust, its an embarrassment.

What about the slaughter of the Canaanites? Does that not qualify as genocide? 34:11-14

God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor.... And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28

God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 25:44-46

I would never deny that the jews have faced persecution for hateful and shallow reasons, but if the above isn't genocide, murder, and slavery, then I guess my facts aren't straight.

edit: I just remembered some more juicy bits from the book of deut.

At God's instructions, the Israelites utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones leaving "none to remain." 2:33-36

God destroyed the followers of Baalpeor. 4:3

God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 7:2

Kill those of other faiths. Reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. 12:30

Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2-7

I particularly like the passages between 28:48-52 and 32:21-26

[TheIrishPatriot]

The old testament isn't the only place. Romans, Corinthians, it's reaffirmed that God doesn't like this stuff.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was actually a good reason why we picked some books and not others?
Apparently not. Maybe you would like to explain to us why Leviticus should be taken as anything but an artifact of barbaric morals. I assume you do know what else is written in Leviticus besides the small mention of homosexuality.

Religious laws governing the Jewish people, concerning purity, worship, sacrifices, etc. The Christians only used books in the old testament that the Jews had already been using for a long time. If you don't like us using it, take it up with them, we appreciate what they laid down. Barbaric? Like the laws forbidding incest? What's wrong with them, not letting you have sex with your mom, eh?

Yes...but do you actually follow all those laws? Tell me honestly, do you eat pork? If so...your as much an abhorrence as you consider homosexuals. Right now you're just being hypocritical.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it says in the Bible, in a few spots, not just in the Old Testament, that God dislikes homosexuality. I used Leviticus as one of them. You latched onto that one, and are acting as though that's the only place. In the letter to the Romans, the writer makes it clear that God lets those who mess around with his creation (sluts, homosexuals) get to live in their lifestyles, which he considers a punishment: God abandoned them to their ways (ready to accept them back). I eat pork. But Christians have chosen parts of the Old Testament to maintain and not cast off, like the Ten Commandments, it's in accord with the new teachings of Jesus and the apostles. But now we don't worry about pork, sacrificing unblemished goats, or other things, but we uphold some parts that WORK with what Jesus also gives us. If that makes sense. And as Jesus says, God designed it to be man and woman together, don't let anybody tear it asunder, it doesn't contradict the part in Leviticus; so I'm saying that that's still part of Christianity. Oh, and I'll flesh that out if it didn't make sense. And I think pork only made you unclean, being homosexual was worse, but I'm not sure...

Btw, Bush, what faith are you?

Seriously vesu, you're attitude is as annoying as Irish's

And Vesu, you're getting what I say wrong slightly. You said that I appreciated what was laid down. Yes and no. Jewish history and law is always good to help understand Christianity, and some parts are wise. But no, I don't appreciate all the examples. We don't know that God ordered them all of those times. It's hard to judge a people from thousands of years ago.

And one note: Keeping on to the Torah is not the equivalent of being proud of the holocaust. The holocaust was pretty much a thing of evil, there were no "redeeming points". But the Torah is not all genocide and blood, so the comparison doesn't fit.

[Deschain]

From biological PoV homosexuals aren't supposed to leave any heritage so strictly biologically speaking they shouldn't exist.

No, from a biological point of view, organisms shouldn't be anything based on a narrow pseudo-philosophical conclusion. Evolution only cares if an organism reproduces or not, not if individuals of the species for some reason do not procreate. Key examples are ants and wolves.

My mistake, what I meant to say is that homosexuals don't leave any fertile descendants, so by not reproducing they remove themselves from the gene pool and theoretically shouldn't exist. I consider them a self-terminating agens and as someone suggested they may have beneficial influence on species survivial.

Ok vesu could you explain what did you meant by ants and (especially) wolves?

Why doesn't He do any number of things that would help us ever so much?....I dunno. I think I skipped that religion class

Wasn't there a story about a man who believed in God despite God sending pestilence, disease and death to him and his family in order to show that man's true devotion to God?
He might be after hardcore believers Irish...