On the Topic of Homosexuality

[TheLegendReborn]

Right but I just didn't understand what else one could mean by doing "nasty things in public" because if you're gay it doesn't mean you have a different set or morals and ethics but to some just gay people holding hands is a blasphemy.

As for "promotion" of being gay I don't know what people mean by being bad for TV because reporters doing stories on how it's fine to be gay is 100 times more productive than lead stories being about Britney Spears or some other stupid celebrity. Plus it's also alot better than in comparison to groups of people in the past like say Afro Americans during the civil rights movement.

[del_diablo]

You do not chose to be homosexual, if your bi you might chose(MIGHT!) or just keep going as usuall.
ADHD was called "Moral Disorder" or someting 80-90 years ago, and it did not become ADHD as we know it today before was it the 80's?

And lets go back in time shall we:
Romans hunts Jews and Christians
Christians hunts Jews
Church hunts down those whom deny's to praise the lord
Witchunt in middel age: people who know stuff about herbs gets massacred, a small rumor is enogh, etc.
White is Superior to Black issue (and slavery)
Controll and supressing Asia&Africa
Allmost exterminating the Indians
Hitler starts a Jew propaganda delux
Ku-Klux Clan

And i think the list is getting alot longer.........

And besides: WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT STATED THAT GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALS?
I know its somewhere that Jesus sayd about someting, but dont forget back then the world had different definitions too.
Back then "Men sleeping with men" meant like: "People who whores around for money/gain" Because society was ruled and controlled by male people. And thus there is not a definition of "Women sleeping with Women", if i recall it correctly.
And thus no refferanse to "Being gay, is against gods will".

Actually Christians are great sinners, due they'r "God, Jesus and The holy spirit"-teachings. Why you ask? Because the bible says that God is the only God. Today we are praying to Jesus, like people ages ago made a sculpture of wood and prayed to the god it was suppose to be. ETC!

[TheIrishPatriot]

You do not chose to be homosexual, if your bi you might chose(MIGHT!) or just keep going as usuall.
ADHD was called "Moral Disorder" or someting 80-90 years ago, and it did not become ADHD as we know it today before was it the 80's?

And lets go back in time shall we:
Romans hunts Jews and Christians
Christians hunts Jews
Church hunts down those whom deny's to praise the lord
Witchunt in middel age: people who know stuff about herbs gets massacred, a small rumor is enogh, etc.
White is Superior to Black issue (and slavery)
Controll and supressing Asia&Africa
Allmost exterminating the Indians
Hitler starts a Jew propaganda delux
Ku-Klux Clan

And i think the list is getting alot longer.........

And besides: WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT STATED THAT GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALS?
I know its somewhere that Jesus sayd about someting, but dont forget back then the world had different definitions too.
Back then "Men sleeping with men" meant like: "People who whores around for money/gain" Because society was ruled and controlled by male people. And thus there is not a definition of "Women sleeping with Women", if i recall it correctly.
And thus no refferanse to "Being gay, is against gods will".

Actually Christians are great sinners, due they'r "God, Jesus and The holy spirit"-teachings. Why you ask? Because the bible says that God is the only God. Today we are praying to Jesus, like people ages ago made a sculpture of wood and prayed to the god it was suppose to be. ETC!

Dude, stop. Leviticus: God hates it when men lie with other men as they would with woman, it says, it does not mean whoring, it means explicitely, gayness. In Romans, "Men had passions for each other, and God abandoned them to their ____ (I forget the word. Perversion?)". Jesus also says that Heterosexuality is right, and not to be messed with "Let nobody split asunder", although that probably isn't directly about homosexuality.

Actually, Christians are great sinners? Wha-? We sin like other humans, to be sure. The three-in-one concept shouldn't be that hard. They're all One, and at the same time, seperate. God says, worship none but me, but He is Jesus, so that means worship Jesus as well. If you're somehow getting confused with the trinity and idol worship, you really need to brush up.

Back on topic...

[VZBushkiller20]

If you want...I can get you the original hebrew that that line is translated from. Also, I would like to point out that it is physically impossible for a man to lie with a man the way he can with a woman (and by that...I mean standard sexual intercourse.)

[TheIrishPatriot]

So are you saying that the original proves me wrong, or you just want to show me the text ?

[del_diablo]

So are you saying that the original proves me wrong, or you just want to show me the text ?

Do me a favor and tell him those lines, ALOT can be changed when translating depening on the translators opinions. The word Homosexualety, is not that OLD.

[VZBushkiller20]

just showing the text. I'm taking that as a yes.

Ch is gutterel, so don't pronounce it like you would char.

V'et zah-char lo teesh-cav meesh-cvay eeshah to-evah he.

And do not lie (sleep) with a male the way you would with a woman, it is an abhorrence.

Now...onto my opinion. Why does the bible quote even matter here? What if they are atheists? Should they be unable to be homosexuals because a god they don't believe in forbids it? Why does it matter what "God" says if this country separates Church and State and guarantees us the freedom of religion?

[Deschain]

There are three main causes of homosexuality:
1. Brain patter aberration
2. Hormonal disorder
3. Psihological influences

While I have no objection against first two types of homosexualism, but the third is purely lack off self-control... Which I dislike. Seeing how you can't really tell which type they are and seeing most gay are victim of number three I just approximate all homosexuals with third option.

From biological PoV homosexuals aren't supposed to leave any heritage so strictly biologically speaking they shouldn't exist... Bible strangely supports a number of biologically good statements.

Generally I don't like them because In my opinion they spread negative influence but I tolerate them. I consider that enough.

[TheLegendReborn]

Although in the Torah it says that you should not lie with another man because the Canaanites did it. It also mentions a few other things that the Canaanites did that you should not do (Like worshiping idols) so it opens up the argument that there was a certain kind of homosexuality that was associated with paganism way back when but like I said it's only an argument and if you take it literally it basically says you shouldn't be gay.

[VZhitogoroshi]

See, I don't like quoting Leviticus, because that implies that the Old Testament is law to the letter (in which case we should kill you and laugh as you burn in hell if you ever worked on a Sunday, don't regularly sacrifice animals, etc.) Doubtless there is a catechismal cop-out, but that makes your entire argument rest on a decison which was made, at BEST, by an Italian man with a large hat. Not God.

Also, are we debating whether it should be legal or just showing opinion? Cause if a religion wants to irrationally hate a type of people based on a book thousands of years old, hey, more power to them. But if ANYONE thinks that a country should fall in line with your beliefs I will come to your house and beat you. Just saying.

(Protip: For whatever you think of the Bible don't cite that as your proof about homosexuality being a choice. Unless of course you also argue that we shouldn't compensate for hurricanes cause those lazy bastards could have just parted the water. :p)

[TheLegendReborn]

Wait what? I can understand not liking direct translations but firstly the sabbath mentioned in the Torah not the Old Testament because there is the "New Testament" and the Torah (Why the hell is it the "Old Testament"? Just because Christians wanted a new book and was like this bores me?). Also the Torah isn't the end all in Judaism and it goes onto lots and LOTS of commentary in the Talmud and what I was trying to say was that the Torah can be interpreted to support many different views. (For instance a major religious perversion is radical Islam and it isn't specific to Islam either)

P.S. The speculation behind the authors of Leviticus wasn't him being the pope and Leviticus came about LONG before the pope

[TheIrishPatriot]

See, I don't like quoting Leviticus, because that implies that the Old Testament is law to the letter (in which case we should kill you and laugh as you burn in hell if you ever worked on a Sunday, don't regularly sacrifice animals, etc.) Doubtless there is a catechismal cop-out, but that makes your entire argument rest on a decison which was made, at BEST, by an Italian man with a large hat. Not God.

Also, are we debating whether it should be legal or just showing opinion? Cause if a religion wants to irrationally hate a type of people based on a book thousands of years old, hey, more power to them. But if ANYONE thinks that a country should fall in line with your beliefs I will come to your house and beat you. Just saying.

(Protip: For whatever you think of the Bible don't cite that as your proof about homosexuality being a choice. Unless of course you also argue that we shouldn't compensate for hurricanes cause those lazy bastards could have just parted the water. :p)

Hito's right about the choice thing in the Bible, it doesn't say its a choice, it just says God hates it. Now that could prompt the question, "Wait, then didn't God create it then?" but we all believe that we are not perfect, that the devil has twisted our human nature. I'll brush up on that...

And Leviticus was made far before the Pope . At first I was confused. "Italian man with a large hat? Should I be getting this?" Then Legend pointed it out...

[vesuvan]

From biological PoV homosexuals aren't supposed to leave any heritage so strictly biologically speaking they shouldn't exist.

No, from a biological point of view, organisms shouldn't be anything based on a narrow pseudo-philosophical conclusion. Evolution only cares if an organism reproduces or not, not if individuals of the species for some reason do not procreate. Key examples are ants and wolves.

Hito's right about the choice thing in the Bible, it doesn't say its a choice, it just says God hates it. Now that could prompt the question, "Wait, then didn't God create it then?" but we all believe that we are not perfect, that the devil has twisted our human nature. I'll brush up on that...

You brought out a perfect example of theodicy(yes, thats a real word) gone wrong.

God is omniscient. God created satan fully knowing what he would do. God practically served adam and eve on a platter for this satan. He then punished them for something he orchestrated.

And what is the quandary for humans? You have two choices, live in finite freedom, then suffer infinite pain, or live as a slave to yagweh for your whole life, to earn the privilege of being his slave for eternity.

If anything, your "satan" is a very noble being. He's rebelled against a terrible dictator, and never hurts anybody (find me one piece of scripture that depicts satan actually unleashing his wrath, go ahead).

But anyway, that is all totally theoretical. Your vaunted belief is completely irrelevant from the discussion of homosexuals. As a matter of fact, its irrelevant from all discussions about the real world.

[VZBushkiller20]

I think you've all missed the point of that line besides legend. The reason it is forbidden isn't because God hate's it. That's not what the hebrew to-evah means. Abhorrence in this case isn't hate. The reason homosexuality is abhorrent is because, like legend says, the Canani'im (or Cannanites) and other pagan cultures were doing it, and God wanted to separate us.

Another thing about the Torah (or "Old Testament") is that it wasn't meant to be the end all be all for the law. By giving the law to the people, God was basically telling them it was their responsibility to follow the law the best they could. Nivi'im is all about the people adopting PAGAN customs and being punished, not because God "hates" homosexuals or the other crap they were doing.

And vesu, please...God is beyond any mortal terminology you could give him. To some, he appears benevolent and just, to others he appears autocratic, and to others he appears as merely a concept. He is ineffable. If God was a despot, why would he have given us free will? Wouldn't he have preferred us to be obedient no matter how we felt?

Your "quandary" is wrong. You're talking about strictly the Christian view of God (or...Yaweh...despite the fact that that is not his name). You complete overlook the Jewish view of it. And by the way, their is no strict way to view God and the after life. It all depends on the individual.

And speaking of the individual, if we have free will shouldn't we be allowed to choose "wicked" if we want? Let God punish the "sinners", the government has enough on their plates already.

[vesuvan]

And vesu, please...God is beyond any mortal terminology you could give him. To some, he appears benevolent and just, to others he appears autocratic, and to others he appears as merely a concept. He is ineffable.

If he is beyond any mortal terminology, then why is it only the negative or null judgments that invoke this concept?

I apply mortal terminology to yaweh because he is depicted in every single piece of religious text to have mortal behaviors. he gets jealous, angry, prideful, and is pleasured by the smell of burning goat flesh. I'll stop applying mortal standards to him when he stops acting like a mortal.

If God was a despot, why would he have given us free will? Wouldn't he have preferred us to be obedient no matter how we felt?

You are applying mortal concepts to god such as "intent" .

Your "quandary" is wrong. You're talking about strictly the Christian view of God (or...Yaweh...despite the fact that that is not his name). You complete overlook the Jewish view of it. And by the way, their is no strict way to view God and the after life. It all depends on the individual.

That might be a good point in your strict perspective, but it isn't in mine. Those types of games go both ways bush .

I get these defenses a lot. "every perspective has elements of truth, therefore your perspective is false", "That isn't my god you are criticizing", and "you can't judge god! He is love!".