On the Topic of Homosexuality

A place to talk about serious "real life" stuff without having to place it in between a demand by Blankie for food and Logue's latest almost-pr0n thread.
User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:34 pm

Jericho Veronus wrote:
Deschain wrote:Yes, they can have babies if they kept their reproductional tract. For example a woman can change her gender to male and still give birth to a baby, if she keeps her uterus.

Technically, yes. If you are a man that changed his gender, you are merely looking like a woman, not really a woman. Laws may treat you like a woman and you look like one but you are still a man since you have XY chromosome.
It takes more than simply the uterus to give birth, if a woman gets gender reconstruction to become a man,it involves the closing of the vagina in forming a penis and artifical testicle sack, otherwise it's simply gender reassignment to become a hermaphrodite, not the opposite sex.
You can opt to become a transman or a transwoman, keeping your reproduction organs while having an appearance of the desired gender.

You are jumping to conclusions
Not to mention if there are two gay guys and one becomes a woman,does that make the other guy still gay?
Jericho Veronus wrote:By your logic if a girl walks by a guy and he thinks she's hot,but it turns out the girl was at one point a guy who got full gender reassignment reconstruction,then that makes the guy automatically gay
In your first post you implied that both parties were aware of their initial gender and the transformed one.

In your second post guy if the guy isn't aware of the girls true gender, so he is getting fooled.
If he does know and prefers h(is)er company to company of other girls then yes, he is technically homosexual.
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

User avatar
Jericho Veronus
Blasphemer
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Camp Pendleton
Contact:

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:52 pm

Deschain wrote: You can opt to become a transman or a transwoman, keeping your reproduction organs while having an appearance of the desired gender.

You are jumping to conclusions

Keeping the organs doesn't classify as a sex change then, by keeping your initial organs it's not gender re-assignment or getting a sex change, that implies being of one sex and getting surgery to become another.

By keeping the organs,and in your example then keeping the vagina altogether it wouldn't be the sex change to a man.
Jericho Veronus wrote:By your logic if a girl walks by a guy and he thinks she's hot,but it turns out the girl was at one point a guy who got full gender reassignment reconstruction,then that makes the guy automatically gay
In your first post you implied that both parties were aware of their initial gender and the transformed one.

In your second post guy if the guy isn't aware of the girls true gender, so he is getting fooled.
If he does know and prefers h(is)er company to company of other girls then yes, he is technically homosexual.
You missed the point of the first post entirely, followed by the second point, it doesn't matter if they knew the initial gender. The fact remains that in both scenarios,they are both men attracted to an individual who looks like, has the 'parts of' and for all intensive purposes is a woman
Image
May God have mercy on your soul, for you shall find none here!

User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:22 pm

It isn't. A man that changed his gender to a woman can't become pregnant.

Ok, let me make this really simple:
I have a broom stick. It has head and a handle. I changed the head and the handle of my broomstick about 12 times. Is it the same broomstick?

I believe it is the same broomstick.
--------------------------------------------------
Alan changed his gender and became Allaine.

If Bob knows that Allain was a man and he wants to date him, he is a (technical) homosexual. It doesn't matter that Alan changed his gender and looks hot. He is still a man inside.

If Bruce just think Allaine is hot, but doesn't know he was Alan before then he doesn't have complete information. This information could have been crucial in Bruce determining on whether or not he wants to be with Allaine. Thus we cannot judge on whether or not he is gay or not. What if Bruce wanted to have biological children? Allaine would have been disqualified from the start.
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

User avatar
Jericho Veronus
Blasphemer
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Camp Pendleton
Contact:

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:33 pm

First of all, in my first post I pointed out and argued with you that they can't have children,so I don't know why you're restating it,unless you're changing your view. Second,you are aware that there are women who were born women, have women parts, but can't have children, right?

Next, I have a broomstick, I change the head from a broom to a mop, it's not longer a god damn broom, it's a friggin mop.
And since brooms and primarily composed of two parts, a head and a handle,changing both pieces would make it an entirely different broom. I don't even know why I'm allowing myself to compare changing a friggin broom to a human being, It's entirely different.

Finally, homosexual- of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward individuals of one's own sex
Given that definition in coorelation with your argument,the man who doesn't know the chick was a dude, is in fact gay,cause according to you,she'sstill a guy. Otherwise to argue against that would be that the guy who is attracted to the chick even though he knows she was a guy is straight because he's not attracted to her for being a guy, he's attracted to her as she is now
Image
May God have mercy on your soul, for you shall find none here!

User avatar
Jericho Veronus
Blasphemer
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Camp Pendleton
Contact:

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:35 pm

And why do you need to change the handle and head of a broom 12 times in one day?
Image
May God have mercy on your soul, for you shall find none here!

User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:44 am

I'm not changing my view. Women usually are fertile.
Broomstick argument is actually a form of ship of Teseus. See Trigger's broom for clarification. Also I'm not gonna dive into semantics

As I suspected, you consider it is a different broom.
To you when man changes his gender he becomes a woman.
To me when man changes his gender he just looks like a woman but he is still a man even if I don't know it.
When you change brooms head into a mop it is still a broom with a mops head. For all intents and purposes it looks like a mop but that doesn't make it any less of a broom with a mops head.
Finally, homosexual- of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward individuals of one's own sex
Yeah, except we base our sexual desire on a huge amount of visual cues. If those visual cues are false then you are being manipulated. You could be either homosexual or heterosexual.

In my example Bob bases his attraction on both visual cues and Alan's history. He knows the whole truth and is thus gay.
Bruce on the other hand is basing his attraction solely on visual cues. He is attracted to the "Allaine" or better to say Alan's female image. He doesn't know the truth and is thus being manipulated. He isn't either gay or straight until he finds out about Allain's gender change and acts accordingly.
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

User avatar
Jericho Veronus
Blasphemer
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Camp Pendleton
Contact:

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Jericho Veronus » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:38 am

I understand your example was simply an attempt at the Ship of Theseus, however,such a paradox doesn't apply to the broom-mop example or to human beings. You see the paradox implies either one of two things when giving examples.
1) The object in question has parts replaced, but they are 'replacement parts' as in with a human, a finger replaces a finger, a tooth replaces a tooth, a penis replaces a penis. It is a new part of the same to the old one. Not, a vagina replaces a penis, cause it is then no longer a replacement part. By your logic on this case with my broom-mop,if I replaced every single part of the broom with a mop piece, it would still be a broom. The mop head is not a 'replacement part' fora broom head. Another broom head could be though.
or 2) The object in question has pieces added due to deterioration. Though the pieces stillagain represent the same function and purpose of the original pieces they are replacing. A person loses their hair to chemo,they get a wig,new piece serves same purpose and function. Still the same person. If someone loses their penis and in turn has a vagina to 'fix' it, then they no longer have a piece to replace the same function and purpose.

Your argument of using the Ship of Theseus cannot be applied here. The closest argument you can make here is not if they are still male or female after a sex change but if they are still a human individual. That's all.
Image
May God have mercy on your soul, for you shall find none here!

Platonic
Noobite Warrior
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:39 pm

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Platonic » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:02 am

I personally never got this transgender nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you mutilate your reproductive organs and inject a ton of hormones, nor will I try to stop you, but I frown on the concept.

Your gender, like every other aspect of yourself, is as big or as small a deal as you make it. The same goes for your skin color, your religion, your socio-economic and geographical background, et cetera. They all make up the ensemble of what "you" are. If you just focus on one particular feature of yourself to the detriment of the others, you will just become a less interesting person. Women who devote themselves to feminism, whites who do the reverse-racism deal, nationalists, they just "become" the cause they are involved in and sacrifice the rest of the potential diversity inherent in any human. But I'm veering off-topic.

You are who you are regardless of what you look like. You are not going to be any different with a mass of silicone and a butchered phallus. Transgender surgery, like plastic surgery, is a purely cosmetic effect for those insecure in who they are. But, well, hell. Life is about being happy, and if it makes you happier, more power to you. I personally like having the ability to reproduce though. Just sayin'.

Gays, of course, are another matter entirely. I've no problem with who you're attracted to, and am not particularly concerned whether it's societal or genetic. As I said in the second paragraph though, if being homosexual starts to define who you are, I'll just consider you a boring person, like any other 1-dimensional creature.

{/rant}

User avatar
andriejj
Keeper of the Keys
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:01 am

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:15 pm

The Lithuanian parliament passed a law prohibiting promotion of homosexualism. Which caused a huge fuss in Strasbourg (for those not familiar - EU parliament is there). Do NOT discuss, until one of the newspapers actually translates and reads that law instead of stating their opinion without doing so >_>

User avatar
Rising_Dusk
Chosen of the Intargweeb
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:15 pm

Deschain wrote:I'm not changing my view. Women usually are fertile.
Broomstick argument is actually a form of ship of Teseus. See Trigger's broom for clarification. Also I'm not gonna dive into semantics

As I suspected, you consider it is a different broom.
To you when man changes his gender he becomes a woman.
To me when man changes his gender he just looks like a woman but he is still a man even if I don't know it.
When you change brooms head into a mop it is still a broom with a mops head. For all intents and purposes it looks like a mop but that doesn't make it any less of a broom with a mops head.
I'm more interested in the Ship of Theseus being noted here. I think the more logical side of the argument can stem when we take an example entirely unrelated to human anatomy. Consider teleportation. The concept of teleportation stems from destroying matter in one space and assembling new matter in a different location with an identical structure. Assuming the transmutation is perfect and no flaws or differences can be noted between the two states of that person (the created one and the destroyed one), then you must ask yourself:

Is it the same person or someone entirely new?

Furthermore, Jericho raises an even more interesting point. He raises the tin man paradox, a variant of the ship of Theseus. Imagine the following case: a human lumberjack has a cursed axe that chops off his body parts. Everytime a part is removed, though, a smith creates and immediately attaches a mechanical replacement to the lumberjack. Furthermore, let us complicate the system and make the assertion that the male lumberjack does not have genitalia created for his metallic counterpart. The lumberjack's conscience is perfectly preserved in the new mechanical body of his.

Is the tin man still the same person as the lumberjack? Or does the notion that he has different parts change his ability to be the same person?

This is all a complication of identity. In order to furcate the situation more, we would then need to define as objectively as possible what makes up a person. Is it a consciousness? Is it a physical state of being? Or is it a mesh of the two? The problem to answering this question is that it is impossible to do so objectively, as there is no objective basis upon which to build one side of the argument over the other. That is part of what makes this kind of discussion futile, as it is rooted innately inside subjectivity, the domain of opinion.
End Objective Analysis
Enter Subjective Thoughts
Personally, I think that changing what you are made of or changing what you look like does not change who you are, but it does change what you are. In this sense, a male completely replacing his body with that of a female's would become a female only in form, not in mentality. The argument for these homosexuals, however, is that (in the case of a male) they are a female in a male's body, and are thus trying to change themselves to have a body that matches. Does that legitimately make them a female? I'd say probably not with our current technology, since the best can be achieved is a partial conversion and creating the physical apparition of femaleness. We cannot wholly convert a male to a female perfectly, and thus the transgender is born - one who is a mesh of male and female parts. (Like a cyborg, virtually)

I think in this case, the transgenders may have the mind of a female (as they claim), but have a split-physical form between that of a male and a female. Ultimately, I agree with Plat in saying that people are entitled to do whatever makes them happy and more comfortable with themselves. If being a hybrid is how someone achieves that, I've no right to make a claim against them for it. (I, however, reserve every right to be uncomfortable myself around them) At some point in the future, a perfect male-to-female conversion (and vice versa) may exist.

In that case, if a person can perfectly convert their physical form from male to female, it would not make another man "gay" to be attracted to that once-man, despite knowing the past circumstances. I cannot lie that it must be slightly discomforting to know that the person had to have such an operation in the first place, though. Honestly, I find attraction to the hybrid gender of human abominable. I wouldn't mind it at all (despite the previously noted discomfort) if the process were perfect, but it's not. Not at all. Not even close.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:50 pm

Jericho Veronus wrote:I understand your example was simply an attempt at the Ship of Theseus, however,such a paradox doesn't apply to the broom-mop example or to human beings. You see the paradox implies either one of two things when giving examples.
1) The object in question has parts replaced, but they are 'replacement parts' as in with a human, a finger replaces a finger, a tooth replaces a tooth, a penis replaces a penis. It is a new part of the same to the old one. Not, a vagina replaces a penis, cause it is then no longer a replacement part. By your logic on this case with my broom-mop,if I replaced every single part of the broom with a mop piece, it would still be a broom. The mop head is not a 'replacement part' fora broom head. Another broom head could be though.
or
2) The object in question has pieces added due to deterioration. Though the pieces stillagain represent the same function and purpose of the original pieces they are replacing. A person loses their hair to chemo,they get a wig,new piece serves same purpose and function. Still the same person. If someone loses their penis and in turn has a vagina to 'fix' it, then they no longer have a piece to replace the same function and purpose.
You are sorely mistaken about the Ship of Theseus
1) When a man replaces his limbs with prosthetics it obviously isn't the same as his previous limb (for example a wooden leg) wouldn't work exactly like the previous limb or would even look the same, though you probably won't claim it is a different man.
2) Ship of Theseus doesn't require deterioration for it to be a paradox. Sometimes it can be through choice (for example in Ghost in the Shell people by choice replace parts of their body with prosthetic ones and it is also a paradox of Ship of Theseus; parts of cars can be changed and also abide to the Ship of Theseus paradox)
Worst case scenario I was talking about Tin man paradox and not Ship of Theseus.

However I find this discussion fruitless. After a consult with my dad (I know it sounds weird) I came to somewhat of an epiphany. There is no point in this discussion since we cannot know what gender is for itself. Is it XY chromosome? A brain pattern, or electric signals that govern our body?
Rising Dusk wrote:I'm more interested in the Ship of Theseus being noted here. I think the more logical side of the argument can stem when we take an example entirely unrelated to human anatomy. Consider teleportation. The concept of teleportation stems from destroying matter in one space and assembling new matter in a different location with an identical structure. Assuming the transmutation is perfect and no flaws or differences can be noted between the two states of that person (the created one and the destroyed one), then you must ask yourself:

Is it the same person or someone entirely new?
I'm afraid that is really a murky one and it cannot be answered, at least not now.

I'm somewhat of a supporter of a 4D resolution of the Ship of Theseus. I won't explain the whole thing in detail since it is there on the wikipedia site.
Basically don't destroy the original and try to determine if original and copy belong to the same 4D stream.
So, it would depend on the technology used in the teleporter and instruments used to see if those two being (copy and original) belong to the same 4D stream as a the original.

As it stands, teleporter seems to me like a suicide-xerox machine :(
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

User avatar
Nowaki
CAPS LOCK INCARNATE
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:50 am
Location: at work.

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Nowaki » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:51 pm

Being myself gay, in a stable relationship, whose ≈98% of the people that know me IRL has absolutely no idea that I am gay, I have to say:

This thread sure is fun. 8-)
Image
In the meadow of sinful thoughts every flower is a perfect one

User avatar
Deschain
Diabolical Doomsayer
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am
Location: Four Trials

Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:58 pm

Yeah it managed to jump from trannies to teleporters in a few posts.

Well that explains your artistic prowess, or was it other way around... ;)
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

Post Reply

Return to “Serious Discussion”