Gaza strip being cleared out

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TheIrishPatriot
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:07 pm

97% of the people here are Atheist :P.

Personally, I don't know a lot that's been going on, but gogo Israel?
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Read my prose please :).
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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:24 pm

TheIrishPatriot wrote:97% of the people here are Atheist :P.
Well, I'm not saying they all believe, and that's not the most recent data. It's just the percentage of people who belong to roman catholic church. If they are practising or not, that's another question.
Personally, I don't know a lot that's been going on, but gogo Israel?
Your attitude is depressing >_>

Israel, in response to those petty rocket attacks, launched a full-scale invasion. With bombardment, airstrikes, tanks, blockades and all that shit. They don't let the so-called 'Western' journalists and representatives in, whole Gaza is split into several zones which are totally unaccessable for each other, they don't even let ambulances through. The aim of the operation - totally destroy Hamas. Like Holocaust, just smaller scale. They don't want to capture them, they want them DEAD. Humanity and international law ftl, I guess. And Hamas isn't just a terrorist organisation. It's a big social movement. They won the elections. Methinks Jews should kill the electors either, eh?

Meanwhile, in the UN, the United States of America BLOCKED a resolution which would order Israel to immediately cease it's land attack.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:49 pm

Israel, in response to those petty rocket attacks, launched a full-scale invasion. With bombardment, airstrikes, tanks, blockades and all that shit. They don't let the so-called 'Western' journalists and representatives in, whole Gaza is split into several zones which are totally unaccessable for each other, they don't even let ambulances through. The aim of the operation - totally destroy Hamas. Like Holocaust, just smaller scale. They don't want to capture them, they want them DEAD. Humanity and international law ftl, I guess. And Hamas isn't just a terrorist organisation. It's a big social movement. They won the elections. Methinks Jews should kill the electors either, eh?
You know what you are right. The quassam rocket attacks are a piece of shit. Those rockets can't even hit the broad side of a barn if they wanted to which is why they sent tons and tons over together. BUT there are a few things that need to be taken into consideration as well. For one Hamas has recently started using Grad rockets as well which reach MUCH farther into places such as Ashkelon and Beer Sheva. Obviously also Grad rockets deal much more damage as well and are easier to aim. And secondly and most importantly, WHY should Israel have to tolerate ANY rocket attacks coming over the Aza Strip border? Are you so daft to say that Israel should put up with it whilst if France was being attacked in such a way the world would be up in arms. No one would question a full scale response if France was under a barrage for months at a time and part of that time being under a so called cease fire.

Do you even know what Israel is doing or does? Israel is one of if not the highest country for sending out social services to any country. Israel is sending in supplies to the strip as they bomb, they are evacuating anyone who has a foreign passport and they are taking out people who need to go to hospital. Obviously everyone can't be saved but you can't honestly say that Israel is retaining all help to the people within the Aza Strip. In fact Israel is probably is the most humane country when it comes to war. What other country will actually drop pamphlets telling people to evacuate an area BEFORE an air strike? What other country makes sure to destroy buildings at a time that there will be the least people present?

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Oxygen
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Oxygen » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:01 pm

So, they give from one hand and take with the other?

Sounds very characteristical of a jewish stereotype!

You have to think beyond the act, though. Why are they being rocketed to begin with? I highly doubt that anyone, even poor, not educated and brainwashed would do this without any reason... and if you believe that the latter is enough, think of why they're being "trained" to do the job.

And why should hamas tolerate full scale invasions blowing up their shitholes simply because there's a minority of extremists attacking israel?

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Deschain » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:35 pm

TheLegendReborn wrote:Obviously everyone can't be saved but you can't honestly say that Israel is retaining all help to the people within the Aza Strip. In fact Israel is probably is the most humane country when it comes to war. What other country will actually drop pamphlets telling people to evacuate an area BEFORE an air strike? What other country makes sure to destroy buildings at a time that there will be the least people present?
Pics and time frame (they could drop pamphlet saying "Your being bombed while you read this" 10 seconds before they start carpet bombing)or it didn't happen.

Most nations try to minimalize civilian casualties by bombarding when it has least amount of civilans unless they are trying to intentionally slaughter as many civilians as possible (Which I don't think Israel is doing; Its bad PR as they say). About the fliers that ain't new. USA sent warning to our TV broadcasting station that they are going to bombard it later in the evening. Does Israel sent warning to Hamas before they bomb their base? If they did that than they would be the most warfare-humane country.

Besides fliers have a secondary effect, they cause fear,panic and will cause immigration. To anyone down there reading that flier with airplanes lurking high above the message reads simply "GTFO or die". Just worded more pretty.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:36 pm

Pics and time frame (they could drop pamphlet saying "Your being bombed while you read this" 10 seconds before they start carpet bombing)or it didn't happen.
Because we all know extreme sarcasm is the way to go right?
Most nations try to minimalize civilian casualties by bombarding when it has least amount of civilans unless they are trying to intentionally slaughter as many civilians as possible (Which I don't think Israel is doing; Its bad PR as they say). About the fliers that ain't new. USA sent warning to our TV broadcasting station that they are going to bombard it later in the evening. Does Israel sent warning to Hamas before they bomb their base? If they did that than they would be the most warfare-humane country.
What about during vietnam? Hell what about what the states have done in Afganastan and Iraq? I seriously doubt the states has put as much intelligence work as Israel has done to pinpoint where they need to hit. The most recent that I can site is late Saturday (Last Saturday), thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

And you know what it is sad that Israel has to go about and try to minimize civilian casualties but if we focus on that we lose focus on why Israel has to do so in the first place. Israel has been bombarded for three years from the Aza Strip, both during times of cease fire and not, and during that time over 6,000 rockets and mortars have been launched into Israeli territory. That time of course encompasses before and after Hamas was elected into parliament in January 2006 but then I was intrigued to go delve just a tiny bit further into that and I found "Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem)." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Hama ... ng_charter)

(Here's a link to the whole charter http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm)

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Oxygen » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:58 am

TheLegendReborn wrote: thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
Leave your houses, we're bombing it for your own security! twinking beautiful.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:43 am

Oxygen wrote:
TheLegendReborn wrote: thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
Leave your houses, we're bombing it for your own security! twinking beautiful.
Or it's saying if Hamas is using your house as a launching site or a storage site please move so you don't get harmed. Sure you can turn anything Israel does and turns it around but I'll be damned if you can't do that with any country but some of you are acting like you expect more of Israel than any other country. Why? I mean let's look to China for one thing and how they've treated Tibet. Over one million have been killed in Tibet and if you take into consideration all that has been lost in wars in Israel (From all sides regardless if Palestinian or just Arab) you still don't get close.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:59 pm

1 million in Tibet? Where you've got that number from O_o

And while you're counting Palestinian rockets, you could also count all Israelian rockets and bombs.

Deschain, you didn't read. They'd never warn Hamas. They want them all to die and go to hell. Last time something like that happened, was US trying to wipe out talibs. Wasn't quite successful, eh? The aims Israel has in this offensive not only break the international law, they go a thousand miles beyond them. It's extermination, no court is scheduled. And probably none of the Israelians will be judged for those oncoming murders, because national solidarity is waaaay more important than lawfulness and justice...

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:36 pm

1 million in Tibet? Where you've got that number from O_o
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm (Scroll down to number 8)
http://www.subliminal.org/tibet/death-chart.html (Doesn't look like an amazingly reliable source but yields the same number)
http://www.tibet.com/Humanrights/poptrans.html "According to Chinese sources, some 87,000 Tibetans were killed in Central Tibet, in also the Lhasa Uprising of March 1959.(4) The exiled Tibetan government, however, revealed in 1984 that since the invasion over 1.2 million Tibetans died as a direct result of China's invasion of their nation."
Like Holocaust, just smaller scale.
Mate if you want to say something is another "halocaust" you should turn your attention to other places beyond Israel. Israel is far from rounding up Palestinians and executing them. Israel is far from taking a village and making them march through a forest to have them dig their own graves. Israel is far from setting up gas chambers where they march in Palestinians telling them they are about to take a shower only for them to realize that they are to die cramped in a room in which you can't even move.

Seriously how can you apply the term so liberally? To use the term halocaust you need to understand the weight that the term holds and by just saying that someone is out to kill another person is the equivalent of a another halocaust is like saying if I kill one person I'm starting a genocide.
The aims Israel has in this offensive not only break the international law, they go a thousand miles beyond them. It's extermination, no court is scheduled. And probably none of the Israelians will be judged for those oncoming murders, because national solidarity is waaaay more important than lawfulness and justice...
I see so if Israel breaks international law it's an issue but in Cambodia, Rowanda, China, or Darfur and Chad nothing will be done? Doesn't a mass scale annihilation of a whole people take precedence over a few hundred people's deaths? Yes this is a very crude way of looking at things but to be objective for a second why is it that Palestinians take priority?

Is it because calling Israel out on everything they do "wrong" at every opportunity more important than lawfulness and justice?
(Well this last sentence isn't objective)

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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:22 pm

Palestinians don't take priority. I'm just judging the operation. Like I said before, Hamas is more than just terrorists. It's like Poland sent commandos to Germany after the neo-nazis around Dresden (neo-nazis don't shoot rockets at us, but... couldn't find a better example ;P), because what they say is against us, they deny our rights, etc.

Cambodia, Chad and Rwanda are the third, or even fourth world. Israel is a highly developed country, with democratic institutions. If they want to be a modern country and be a part of the modern world, they should accept the fact that they can't do whatever the f.uck they want. But under the American coat, they're safe and carefree (in this resort).

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Deschain
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Deschain » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:21 pm

andriejj wrote: Deschain, you didn't read. They'd never warn Hamas.
Don't mistake sarcasm for sincerity. It could get you hurt. A lot.

Countries waging wars aren't nice to each other. People are killing each other for crying out loud. Though some people are an exclusion from the rule like this guy.
However, Saladin's relationship with Richard was one of chivalrous mutual respect as well as military rivalry. When Richard became ill with fever, Saladin offered the services of his personal physician. Saladin also sent him fresh fruit with snow, to chill the drink, as treatment. At Arsuf, when Richard lost his horse, Saladin sent him two replacements.
Tell me would Israel arch-commander or something sent medication to sick Hamas leader(s)?
No. Most human country in war goes tooo....Arab Egypt. Lets give a warm applause for them and their beloved ruler Saladin.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm

Palestinians don't take priority. I'm just judging the operation. Like I said before, Hamas is more than just terrorists.
You say that but you don't say anything to back it up. The most you've said is that they were elected which hardly will stop a group from being a terrorist organization. I even sited their founding charter which talks about destroying Israel, which is kind of an odd thing considering Israel has and does supply the Palestinian territories a whole lot.
It's like Poland sent commandos to Germany after the neo-nazis around Dresden (neo-nazis don't shoot rockets at us, but... couldn't find a better example ;P), because what they say is against us, they deny our rights, etc.
There's a reason you can't site an example because there aren't too many or perhaps any good examples that you can give of what Israel is in. I suppose you could use the time in Jordan when Fatach was using their country as a base but that would be hard because the outcome was that Jordan forced Fatach out and into Lebanon. There just aren't many examples of a nation which supplies territories but at the same time being attacked for years by the territories.
Tell me would Israel arch-commander or something sent medication to sick Hamas leader(s)?
If he was captured he would be given medical attention and then a trial followed by a jail sentence. However chances are capturing any Hamas fighter will be almost impossible because Israel is not in a position to go about trying to capture people like they normally would if it was an operation specifically for a single target. And before you say Israel has assassinated people yes that's true but it's not like the people Israel assassinates are you're average militant.
Cambodia, Chad and Rwanda are the third, or even fourth world. Israel is a highly developed country, with democratic institutions. If they want to be a modern country and be a part of the modern world, they should accept the fact that they can't do whatever the f.uck they want.
What about China? China a developed country but China hardly gets as much flak if any in comparison (China vs. Tibet as opposed to Israel vs. Hamas). http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... id=1049224 (Or just look up 33 countries genocide) This is about 33 countries facing different UN sanctions, certain countries are considered red alert or orange alert depending on how bad they think the countries are. However Israel is not among them for genocide claims. As for any other claim about how Israel was too rash about going into the Aza Strip is silly because any other first world country would have done the same thing except much sooner. No other country would sit for three years accepting the bombardment regardless of how bad the quality of the rockets were.
But under the American coat, they're safe and carefree (in this resort).
This was going to happen eventually. The rocket and mortar fire was not going to magically hold up when Obama took seat in office, it wasn't going to hold up if Israel didn't enter. However it can be argued that because Israel is unsure of what the next office in America will be like that they rushed this a bit, sure I think that's a fair argument and Obama has yet to actually comment on the situation. But to say that Israel is only able to do this because the American government backs it up is an assumption based on no evidence what so ever. Hell even the Egyptian government is calling for Hamas to stop firing rockets if they want a cease fire. Just in general if you are going to call for a cease fire shouldn't you stop doing what made the opposing force attack you in the first place?

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Deschain » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:19 am

TheLegendReborn wrote:
1 million in Tibet? Where you've got that number from O_o
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm (Scroll down to number 8)
http://www.subliminal.org/tibet/death-chart.html (Doesn't look like an amazingly reliable source but yields the same number)
http://www.tibet.com/Humanrights/poptrans.html "According to Chinese sources, some 87,000 Tibetans were killed in Central Tibet, in also the Lhasa Uprising of March 1959.(4) The exiled Tibetan government, however, revealed in 1984 that since the invasion over 1.2 million Tibetans died as a direct result of China's invasion of their nation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s ... 80%931951)
The high casualty reported by the Tibetans has been questioned by western scholars. Sinologist Tom Grunfeld finds that the figure is "without documentary evidence."[36] According to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause who was able to view the data and calculations, the estimate is not reliable. French says this total was based on refugee interviews, but when he examined the raw data, he found no names, but "the insertion of seemingly random figures into each section, and constant, unchecked duplication."[37] The book was felt suspicious by Tibetans in exils[38], French estimates that half a million Tibetans died as a result of Chinese policies, "a devastating enough figure, in all conscience, which in no way diminishes the horror of what was done in Tibet."[39]
Just to set records straight. Wikipedia with citation(tm) states otherwise.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:55 am

It could be million, it could be half a million, but it doesn't matter. Some other country acting worse than you is no excuse for doing bad things.

You forgot to add that during those 3 years of "sitting", Israel did nothing to make peace. They were mainly threatening Iran with airstrikes if they make a nuke. And going defensive, what they do the best.

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