Katanas are better than poleaxes.

[vesuvan]

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Have you ever wondered why you never see samurai wearing armor that could deflect a poleaxe or bastard sword? The Japanese had created a weapon with such cutting power that plate armor was not an adequate defense.

It's no wonder knights wore such bulky armor. They couldn't even make a sword that could cut through it! As a result, western swords evolved to become not cutting weapons, but bludgeoning weapons. These heavy metal clubs could hardly even bisect an unarmored peasant they were so thick and dull.

I know it's painful, but you have to let the image go that has been perpetuated by D&D, Tolkien and WoW. Western swords are not the mythical powerful weapons we were raised to believe they were. Just concede that an island nation perfected the sword long before all of Europe.

You will never see Wizards of the coast adapt to actual facts, so katanas were actually dropped from fourth edition. You know how it is, they have to sell to the lowest common denominator. It just goes to show that westerners are not ready to let go of their myth of the deadly knight and katanas are just too embarrassing.

[Oxygen]

I remember katana being one handed and hitting as hard as zweihanders, so clearly, the weapon's power WAS represented (at least, in baldur's gate II)

[Rising_Dusk]

I mean, Ves, I agree with you. Still, though, the world of D&D and RPG games would be boring as hell if the only slashing weapons available were katanas. Surely you can agree with that.

[AnemicRoyalty]

There was a western culture capable of forging metal with equal skill as the Japanese, but I've completely forgotten which one. Might have been the Turks or Arabs, not sure. Certainly not the early Vikings, who could straighten their swords with their boots. The western myth of the magic sword is more about what the weapon represents anyway, be it truth, justice or some other symbol against adversity. Plus western armor was specialised for how it would be used eg Gothic Plate and the scenarios the wearer would encounter such as mounted combat etc.

[SetaSoujirou]

Just saying, katana is the correct plural of katana.

[Crevax]

AR, you're probably thinking of Damascus Steel, which was legendary in its strength and sharpness. If any blade could match the strength and sharpness of the katana, it would have been those used to the Saracens.

Ves, the katana was not a perfect weapon. It could not cut through armor like you claim it can, nor would they hold up to strikes against other metal. The harder edge given to katana may have made it stronger, but it also made it more brittle. Which is why a lot of emphasis was given to a one-shot kill. A person's flesh wouldn't offer much resistance, but crossing with another sword would cause chipping in the blade. While a knights sword would also chip and wear down as blades crossed, their blacksmiths used a softer edge that would hold up better than the katana.

A bludgeoning weapon was more important than a sharp weapon during the medieval period. The combination of plate armor and chainmail made it difficult to take down a knight with slashing or piercing weapons, but mad them more susceptible to being knocked down. Their strength was in the armor, not their weapons. In battle, knights would most often fight other knights, and the rest of the army fought in their own way.

Don't perpetuate the rising myth the ancient Japanese culture was flawless and greater in every aspect than the Europeans. The weapons and armor of both the Japanese and Europeans reflect their culture, and both have their own advantages and disadvantages, with one not being inherently greater than the other. To argue one culture's glorification is meaningless when placed with the support of another's.

[Kaome Sky Deathand]

I concur with Crevax.
Having poured time into weapons and tactics of the old world, I'd have to say that the greatest 'blade' I have come across is no more than a simple dagger. The Trench Spike (Trench Knife/Knuckle Duster) of World War One was designed to punch through the man-made armor of a helmet and the natural thick armor of a skull in one single motion.

In view of the topic's title, I'd rather take on fifty peasants with Katana than one man who has mastered a Tombogiri.

[Rising_Dusk]

I'd still want a katana against the zombie apocalypse over a claymore. There is some truth in what Ves says, but I agree that "an island nation" did not "perfect" the art of the sword. A sword, like any weapon, can have different uses based on the scenario it is used in. That the katana was designed for cutting and splitting of flesh and the claymore was more for repeated use against heavily armored targets doesn't make either inherently better than the other as a whole.

Crevax' points about the material properties of the katana and western swords are correct, too. The katana is an incredibly brittle weapon, no matter what you or anyone says. I've taken enough material property courses to know what's what and how you cannot get huge strength and huge ductility all in one.

[Oxygen]

I'm pretty sure they crafted the katana from both the brittle but solid carbon (for the edge) and the more flexible and softer one.

The best weapon is still the pen =D

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm absolutely sure they didn't have the technology to manufacture high-carbon steel when katana were used as a mainstay weapon in Japan. Even if they did, it'd still be more brittle than otherwise. When I say something is brittle, I don't mean it fractures on first use, it's a relative measurement. In comparison to the steel used for claymores and the like, katana were not durable at all.

[vesuvan]

edit: Katanas were made from very low-quality steel. Folding is a smith technique for reducing the detriment of impurities in the steel by polarizing its composition. A technique for removing a detriment cannot create a product superior to a product that does not have a detriment. Even after the Japanese started importing steel, it was discovered that excessively folding quality steel is very much like putting a professional runner in a wheelchair.

There isn't a single sentence in the OP that was not deliberately engineered to be implausible. Crevax, you have saved the thread. Thank you.

I was inspired to make this thread when I set out to make some simple tables that would compare a weapon to various types of armor, then turn this table into a very concise set of properties weapons and armor had in offense and defense. There are hundreds of different cultures in the world, each with different fighting styles, weapons, and armor, yet most RPGs have one mere fighter class, and you are lucky if he can wield anything except a longsword.

I was extremely surprised at how little good material I could obtain on comparing different armaments from before the year 1400. Most of it was nationalist garbage and fanboy debates that make operating system and video game system debates look rational and intellectual. The most egregious offender in this area was the katana, and how it is mercilessly felated.


Yes, that is a steel broadsword being sliced. I posted this image four times on 4chan and ended up with 140+ replies each time. Notice how the broadsword doesn't even appear to have an edge.

[Oxygen]

I read something about azteks making sword-like weapons out of wooden clubs studded with sharpened obsidian shards, I thought that was pretty cool

[Rising_Dusk]

How the heck is an anime's rendition of a broadsword even remotely accurate? I can't actually believe that you could think that animation you posted as meaning anything whatsoever. Did you also know that in anime shows, katana can cut through entire buildings, bridges, and many-feet thick structural steel? I'll have you know that your little anime animation showing a broadsword as being just a hunk of steel is completely bogus.

...by polarizing it's composition

Please, at least dignify this site by not assuming we're idiots. Polarizing its composition? Really? Do you even understand austenitizing and the metallurgical processes inherent to tempering steel? And before you go consult wikipedia in an attempt to respond to this sensibly, please remember not to take me for a fool.

[vesuvan]

It's funny how in this anime the katana is very detailed, but looking at this GIF you would never assume the object being cut in half was a broadsword. In the same episode it implied that western swords were made entirely by inserting the melted materials into a mold, which is not at all accurate.

I didn't know austenitizing was such an important thing to mention, but I don't even know what the word means. I do know that the layering itself isn't necessarily part of the process. I did not intend to further mock anybody. The OP was a joke but my previous post was not so I apologize. It's an implication that I now know to be incorrect, not an attempt at insulting your intelligence.

The spanish have stories of the aztecs killing a horse with a single blow using those weapons. It's unfortunate that they are so rarely represented in games. I could not find anything comparing the effectiveness of a maquahuitl to that of a sword.

[Intoxicated Crayon]

Maquahuitl is a pretty effective weapon versus flesh or lightly armored foes like the katana. It just breaks too easily because obsidian shards like the ones they carved and tied on onto their weapons are extremely brittle. Although it wouldn't really matter with the foes they were fighting since Aztecs were usually fighting unarmored fellow native american men, however, when the Spanish conquistadors encountered them... Their brittle swords broke when hit the Spaniards metal armor. But, any direct hit received by the Maquahuitl has a large chance to be fatal based on the medical knowledge of the time :p.

Besides swords and axes, the aztecs also had bolas or slings. One direct hit from the sling could break bones and a hit to the head was usually instant death.