3.00 Arro Kree

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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Hell_Tempest » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:28 pm

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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Psiclone » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:36 pm

So does this mean that ALL the skins will be redone? Because I'd love to see what AR or KR could do to Ginther :D
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:48 pm

Ginther will not be redone, I don't think. I quite like the way he looks. Numerous other textures will be redone, though.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Hell_Tempest » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:26 pm

Do you know for sure who will not be redone, or are you still deciding?
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by erwtenpeller » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:50 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:
erwtenpeller wrote:But you could at least admit that it looks like lightning, becouse it does, period.
The truth is that for me it doesn't. The difference is that I'm biased by intimate knowledge of my own world...
Its not about "your world", it is about how people interpertate certain visual cues (ques?). Some imaging and iconography is inbedded in the general conciousness in such a way that you cant really get rid of it.

It doesnt matter if you dont think they look like lightning bolts. Becouse they do.

Now the thing that you have to ask yourself is, does it matter? Could it maybe misrepresent the character? Bolts of lightning dont have to represent him shooting actual lightning, it could just imply power. He could just wear it becouse it looks twinking badass, but you have to ask yourself these things when designing interactive media, its important to know what people allready know.

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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:26 am

erwtenpeller wrote:Its not about "your world", it is about how people interpertate certain visual cues (ques?). Some imaging and iconography is inbedded in the general conciousness in such a way that you cant really get rid of it.
Maybe for the Dutch, Erwt. :p
But seriously, when I see a visual cue, I also see the context within which it exists and then interpret the image from that. Maybe some people can judge images by looking at only one part, but I can't, I've never been able to. That's a big part of what makes me good at making maps in the first place -- I see the big picture from the details, not the details from the big picture.
erwtenpeller wrote:...but you have to ask yourself these things when designing interactive media, its important to know what people allready know.
I don't really care about that, though. You need to realize that I don't get paid to do this, so like hell am I going to tailor my views of things to what people want. The instant these maps start paying my bills, I'll start listening to that 'interactive media' stuff and start caring on a more intimate level than I already do what these media represent to others.
erwtenpeller wrote:Now the thing that you have to ask yourself is, does it matter? Could it maybe misrepresent the character? Bolts of lightning dont have to represent him shooting actual lightning, it could just imply power. He could just wear it becouse it looks fandangling badass...
To be perfectly honest, I have never once denied the fact that they look like lightning bolts, I've only ever denied the claim that because they look like lightning bolts that they must be representative of lightning. It seems you agree with me there, so there's no legitimate logic behind pursuing this vain of discussion. :p
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by erwtenpeller » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:41 am

Rising_Dusk wrote:so there's no legitimate logic behind pursuing this vain of discussion. :p
'k. Was just giving my designers opinion on the whole thing.

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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:59 pm

Awh, but you ignored the rest of my post which was aimed towards spurring a fun discussion. :'<
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Vigor » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:38 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Awh, but you ignored the rest of my post which was aimed towards spurring a fun discussion. :'<
I will just take it from here, then.
Rising_Dusk wrote: Maybe for the Dutch, Erwt. :p
Tasteless joke.
Rising_Dusk wrote: But seriously, when I see a visual cue, I also see the context within which it exists and then interpret the image from that..
Unless you are somehow something else than a human, this is not how your brain works. Let's examine what happens in the mind when we first see an image like this, okay?

Step 1: Initial observation. Almost all of the test subjects in this thread at once noticed the lightning bolts first. This is, as explained by erwt, because lightning bolts are a very known symbol for electricity.

Step 2: Processing of the observation. In the next step, all of the test subject who noticed the lightning bolts made an assumption that the hero in question has an affinity to lightening. This is not a coincidence. Every single person who noticed the bolts, except the creators themselves noticed this.

Step 3: Deeper analysis. This is where your quote comes in to play. Your words:
"I also see the context within which it exists and then interpret the image from that". This is the third step in the observation process. You start speculating on what the lightening bots can stand for. However, everybody except you skipped this step because they already drew a conclusion on this matter. The lightning bolts stand for lightening powers, because this is an accept fact. Only because you already knew this was not the case you were able to think beyond that. Without this information, or at least information that the earlier conclusion was incorrect, no human being will think beyond step 2.
Rising_Dusk wrote:Maybe some people can judge images by looking at only one part, but I can't, I've never been able to. That's a big part of what makes me good at making maps in the first place -- I see the big picture from the details, not the details from the big picture
So, Dusk, when you see a the "play" button on your mp3 player, do you ponder on what the meaning of this symbol is? Maybe the triangle stands for Christianity, the father, the son and the holy spirit? No, you don't ponder about that. You immediately know what it means, and therefore, your thought process comes to a halt. This is what happens in your brain, my brain, and every human's brain. This is what happened when we saw those lightning bolts.
Rising_Dusk wrote:I don't really care about that, though. You need to realize that I don't get paid to do this, so like hell am I going to tailor my views of things to what people want.
How does this statement relate to anything erwt has said? He never once said that you should tailor your art to what people want. He said that by drawing lightning bolts on your character's cape, you gave your audience a wrong image of your character. Your character gives your audience the wrong message because you misused vital imagery.

By misusing imagery, you are simply making a poor quality artistic product. Your image and your character do not match. It has nothing to do with what people want.
Rising_Dusk wrote:To be perfectly honest, I have never once denied the fact that they look like lightning bolts, I've only ever denied the claim that because they look like lightning bolts that they must be representative of lightning.


You are denying that the image of the sun invokes a sensation of heat. You are denying that a stop sign does not tell us to stop. You are saying a flowerbed invokes a feeling of rage. You seem to think that the interpretation of this symbolism is subjective. It is not, it is objective. You can't deny an objective truth.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:03 pm

I wish you two would stop using each other's accounts, it's really confusing as to whom I'm speaking.

And you seem to be going berserk over the fact that I simply view things in a different way than you, not doing something "inhuman" as you so belligerently imply. Really, ever heard of a left-brained individual? Does he not take a logistical and mathematical approach to everything? Does that make him inhuman because he does not think the same way as the right-brained individuals? Of course not, he just does it differently. That you are so righteously claiming that I am acting 'inhuman' is as offensive as it is ignorant.
Vigor wrote:Step 1: Initial observation. Almost all of the test subjects in this thread at once noticed the lightning bolts first. This is, as explained by erwt, because lightning bolts are a very known symbol for electricity.

Step 2: Processing of the observation. In the next step, all of the test subject who noticed the lightning bolts made an assumption that the hero in question has an affinity to lightening. This is not a coincidence. Every single person who noticed the bolts, except the creators themselves noticed this.

Step 3: Deeper analysis. This is where your quote comes in to play. Your words:
"I also see the context within which it exists and then interpret the image from that". This is the third step in the observation process. You start speculating on what the lightening bots can stand for. However, everybody except you skipped this step because they already drew a conclusion on this matter. The lightning bolts stand for lightening powers, because this is an accept fact. Only because you already knew this was not the case you were able to think beyond that. Without this information, or at least information that the earlier conclusion was incorrect, no human being will think beyond step 2.
I just had four people picked at random from my department at campus and their synopsis without any prior insight was as follows:
  • First Person:
    "Darkness Mage"
  • Second Person:
    "Evil Caster Person"
  • Third Person:
    "Darkness Mage"
  • Fourth Person:
    "Black Mage"
If you'd like me to cite them as proper references in MLA or AIAA format so that you can give them a phone call and ensure I'm not making it up, I'd be happy to humor you.
Vigor wrote:So, Dusk, when you see a the "play" button on your mp3 player, do you ponder on what the meaning of this symbol is? Maybe the triangle stands for Christianity, the father, the son and the holy spirit? No, you don't ponder about that. You immediately know what it means, and therefore, your thought process comes to a halt. This is what happens in your brain, my brain, and every human's brain. This is what happened when we saw those lightning bolts.
Is the play button on my MP3 player or is it on the screen of a digital multimeter in a microcomputer lab? Because if it's on one or the other, it means significantly different things. Is your example at all relevant? No, it really isn't. If anything, it segued into my point that you cannot quantify every human thought process as being the same. If it were that easy, there would be no such things as cognitive psychology and so forth.

Maybe you saw one thing with the bolts, but I and (at least) four other people saw the big picture before the details and picked him out as something other than a lightning mage.
Vigor wrote:He said that by drawing lightning bolts on your character's cape, you gave your audience a wrong image of your character.
And I said that I don't particularly care what my audience thinks over what I think because they don't pay me to do jack shit so I have zero obligation to them in the first place. I will make my maps my way so that I will enjoy them, if people don't like that, they can pay me to do it differently or go play something else. That's how it works already, I don't see where your disillusion comes to play.
Vigor wrote:By misusing imagery, you are simply making a poor quality artistic product.
For you and yours, maybe. For me? It's perfect imagery, it makes the exact point I want, it looks right. Is the "artistic product" poor? That's as subjective a claim as 99% of your "evidence" against me in your last post. Nice.
Vigor wrote:You are denying that the image of the sun invokes a sensation of heat. You are denying that a stop sign does not tell us to stop. You are saying a flowerbed invokes a feeling of rage. You seem to think that the interpretation of this symbolism is subjective. It is not, it is objective.
Quote me on it.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by erwtenpeller » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:12 pm

dude that was vig posting, not me, i'm done trying to discuss this stuff.

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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Vigor » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:30 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:I wish you two would stop using each other's accounts, it's really confusing as to whom I'm speaking.
This is Vigor speaking, not erwt.
Rising_Dusk wrote:And you seem to be going berserk over the fact that I simply view things in a different way than you, not doing something "inhuman" as you so belligerently imply.


I’m not going berserk. This is just the way I make my arguments, it’s a bit offensive I admit but I am used to debate like this. I have nothing against you, the skin, or the map. I only disagree with your statement and am attacking it.
Rising_Dusk wrote:Really, ever heard of a left-brained individual? Does he not take a logistical and mathematical approach to everything? Does that make him inhuman because he does not think the same way as the right-brained individuals? Of course not, he just does it differently. That you are so righteously claiming that I am acting 'inhuman' is as offensive as it is ignorant.
Mathematical, aesthetical, emotional, logical, or whatever your thought process you are in, it does not make a difference when you are interpreting basic symbolism. Let’s say that both an artist and a scientist look at this picture . Both of them will be immediately say that is a pirate flag: that is the first thought that enters their brain.

That is simply because the skull and two bones on a black background is accepted as a symbol for piracy. This symbol has grown so strong that it is accepted as a law, regardless of who is looking at it. That is why I brought up the play button example: it is a symbol that is so strong that it will immediately invoke the same thought in every person.

Whatever comes after that initial thought is not relevant. The point I am making here is simple. People who look at that skin will think of electricity. Can you honestly say with a straight face that the picture didn’t immediately reminds you of pirates?
Rising_Dusk wrote:
  • First Person:
    "Darkness Mage"
  • Second Person:
    "Evil Caster Person"
  • Third Person:
    "Darkness Mage"
  • Fourth Person:
    "Black Mage"
Okay, fair enough, let me compile a list of my own test subjects.
HyperActive wrote:Holy crap, I thought that someone started a thread asking how will Kree look in 3.00, and what do I find, the awesome, new and improved Arro Kree! Is that lightning on his robes? Dare I think of his new abilities ;) ...
Immediately assumes on the basis of the lightning bolts that Arro Kree will receive new spells. I think it is safe to assume that this member was referring to lightning based spells, since he specifically mentioned the bolt.
Merlin wrote:Nice, but I think the cape might have too many folds in it.
Is he going to be a lightning-themed hero in 3.00?
I’ll add mine and erwt to this list as well, since I had a talk with him earlier about this subject, and we both were immediately reminded of a lightning themed hero as well.
Rising_Dusk wrote: And I said that I don't particularly care what my audience thinks over what I think because they don't pay me to do jack shit so I have zero obligation to them in the first place. I will make my maps my way so that I will enjoy them, if people don't like that, they can pay me to do it differently or go play something else. That's how it works already, I don't see where your disillusion comes to play.
Again with the money, eh?
Fair enough, you seem to have very design motivation from me and erwt. However, I will say this, when making a work of art, it is always important to consider your audience, since that is where your art will eventually really start to blossom. But I guess I can’t make an argument against this, because it is just a different philosophical approach to art.
Rising_Dusk wrote: Quote me on it.
Sure.
Rising_Dusk wrote: To be perfectly honest, I have never once denied the fact that they look like lightning bolts, 'I've only ever denied the claim that because they look like lightning bolts that they must be representative of lightning.
To me, the bolded phrase sound exactly like:
“I’ve only ever denied the claim that because it looks like a white skull with two bones crossed with eachother on a black background that they must be representative of pirates.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:45 pm

Vigor wrote:Mathematical, aesthetical, emotional, logical, or whatever your thought process you are in, it does not make a difference when you are interpreting basic symbolism. Let’s say that both an artist and a scientist look at this picture . Both of them will be immediately say that is a pirate flag: that is the first thought that enters their brain.

That is simply because the skull and two bones on a black background is accepted as a symbol for piracy. This symbol has grown so strong that it is accepted as a law, regardless of who is looking at it. That is why I brought up the play button example: it is a symbol that is so strong that it will immediately invoke the same thought in every person.

Whatever comes after that initial thought is not relevant. The point I am making here is simple. People who look at that skin will think of electricity. Can you honestly say with a straight face that the picture didn’t immediately reminds you of pirates?
No, I will not say that doesn't look like a pirate's flag. This also looks like a lightning bolt. Nowhere in any of my posts in this entire thread have I denied that. Now, let's take that lightning bolt and put it on something bigger, something larger, something with more symbols and more visual cues than just a lightning bolt. Suddenly, your initial thought might be lightning, but in the context of the entire work of art it takes on a new meaning.

Look at this. See the things that remind me of a lightning bolt in that symbol there? Yeah, that reminds me a lot of a lightning bolt, but in the context of the image, I am reminded of the Metroid games instantly. The lightning symbology is hidden under a veil of a higher-level symbol, in this case the Metroid emblem.

While small visual cues may give you one feeling, the big picture is different regardless of those lowest-level cues. If I put that pirate flag in a collage of different flags from different vessels across the world, the message would no longer be "pirate" but "flags." That is my point here.
Vigor wrote:
Rising_Dusk wrote:To be perfectly honest, I have never once denied the fact that they look like lightning bolts, 'I've only ever denied the claim that because they look like lightning bolts that they must be representative of lightning.
To me, the bolded phrase sound exactly like:
“I’ve only ever denied the claim that because it looks like a white skull with two bones crossed with eachother on a black background that they must be representative of pirates.
How nice of you to actually provide the first half of that quote, though, since it specifically says that they look like lightning bolts. The second half of the statement says clearly to me that just because they look like lightning bolts, they do not have to represent lightning in the bigger picture. If the entire character were blue with those lightning bolts, I would see a lightning mage, but the entire character is purple with those lightning bolts, so I think mental or darkness mage with some badass chaotic bolts of kickassery.
Vigor wrote:Again with the money, eh?
Fair enough, you seem to have very design motivation from me and erwt. However, I will say this, when making a work of art, it is always important to consider your audience, since that is where your art will eventually really start to blossom. But I guess I can’t make an argument against this, because it is just a different philosophical approach to art.
It's the truth, though. The only reason I make maps is so that I can play them. If I don't enjoy a map, I won't make it. I won't lie and claim that I'm being virtuous and giving my time specifically for the community's benefit because I'm not. That other people happen to like the same things I do is why I design the way I do. This community developed because people came here after liking the things that I made in my way. In that light, I assume that those people, my audience (Myself included), will think the same way I do on some level and see the big picture from the details, not the details from the big picture.

Money is just a point of a career. If someone pays me for my time, I will design it their way for them, which may or may not coincide with my way. But so long as it's a hobby, which it always will be as far as I'm aware, it will continue to be done my way.

Anyways, I guess I should mention that AR will be removing a good portion of the lightning bolts from the texture.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by VZManticoran » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:07 pm

:( I liked the lightning. In AK it just seems to be representative of energy, which is what AK does. A symbol of lightning could also have the lightning being a symbol of something else.
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Re: 3.00 Arro Kree

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:16 pm

The bolts on the cape will stay because they're badass, but we'll do something else for the mantle and we'll just open up the shoulders more (They're too cluttered anyways).
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