Gaza strip being cleared out

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VZBushkiller20
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Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by VZBushkiller20 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:20 pm

For those of you who are not aware, Israel has invaded the Gaza strip with the intention of destroying Hamas. I don't know too many details at this point, but I do know that connections with Iran have been discovered, Israel plans on obliterating Hamas completely by any means necessary, and that the entire situation right now is very, very tense.

So, in hopes that I can learn more, what are your opinions on this situation we start the new year with?
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Deschain
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Deschain » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:33 pm

Yay!!!

IMO this should have deen dealt with words and declaration instead of guns and bombs. What I fear is that by trying to eradicate Hamas Israel will instead just push more desperate people in their ranks.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by The Colonel » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:33 pm

Deschain wrote:Yay!!!

IMO this should have deen dealt with words and declaration instead of guns and bombs. What I fear is that by trying to eradicate Hamas Israel will instead just push more desperate people in their ranks.
Most of the time that's what happens.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:44 am

With United States gullibly backing up Israel, they can do anything. Awww damn, when Jews will stop being a specially privileged nation? >_> I mean, really, compare what the media said after the attack on Lebanon and Russia's war with Georgia.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:59 pm

Ok I'm going to first start off that if ANY other first world country was in Israel's position the other country wouldn't exist anymore. Well this is a slight exaggeration but the example stands that if Mexico attack the States with some little Quassam rockets Mexico would be invaded on the spot with a big black spot wherever the rockets came out of with no question. The same example works if France was attacked (If they had a decent army), if Britain was attacked, if Germany was attacked.

It's amazingly obvious my stance and bias on the issue (Yes I acknowledge this fact but everyone is bias no matter, just matters to what degree) however I would like some reasons to back up arguments instead of Israel sucks or Hamas sucks.

Israel is a special country, it is the only country to be rang in by the UN which is why I think it has been put up on such double standards at times. This isn't to say that Israel was treated specially 60 years ago when it was created by how specially can a country be treated when they single handily take on 5 other forces at once and then win?

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by vesuvan » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:59 pm

Are the Hamas are a dangerous pest, or a political organization that should be taken seriously? I'm leaning towards the latter, because without the Hamas, who is going to expose the Zionist funding of Nazi Germany?
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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:33 pm

What's your point? That Israeli people are, oh so great, because they took down 5 forces? Now remind yourself who armed them and who's still arming them.

I'd also recommend trying to look from some other perspective. The Israel, as a country, was recreated after circa about 2000 years by UN, mainly by GB, on a muslim ground. YES, 60 years ago the current Israel was mostly muslim, while being under muslim reign for the previous >1000 years. Then, during the World War I, Brittish pretty much conquered that region and in 1922, LoN 'created' Palestine under Brittish mandate. Jewish government under an English flag. That was along with big immigration of Jews initiated by the Brittish. Later we had WW2, Holocaust, even more immigration, creation of Israel.

So the local muslims suddenly get millions of immigrants, they are displaced to the East in favor of some foreign culture, nation and religion. In their place, wouldn't you be pissed off? What's more, that foreign, enemy country get's a huge support from the world's most powerful nation, the United States. Hence the America-hate. Remind yourself the uprising in Hungary, which COULD end up well, and speed up the decomposition of USSR, if the US didn't totally IGNORE it in favour of the war with Egypt started by Israel.

Now try telling me Israel isn't specially privileged and that it doesn't have an unfair advantage. If Israel get's their country back after 2000 years, then, hell, Lithuania, Belarus and parts of Ukraine should join us back! We had them waaaaaay more recent than 2000 years ago!

About the rocket attacks. They are usually performed by desperate or fanatical rebelliants/terrorists/extremists, who usually have nothing to do with the government of the country from which they're shooting. After those post-soviet missles fall, Israel responds with full barrage, airstrikes, sometimes with whole assaults.

Palestinians are to be treated separately. They are desperate. Many of them were moved east, displaced to that small autonomy. Memories and the past won't die like that. They live long after their participants deaths. Nsations hold grudges over much more insignificant events and things. What happened in Israel over the last 100 years was incredibly fast and it will take a long time before it will be calm there.

I'll conlude, saying what my problem with the Jews and the Israel is. I don't like them being treated specially because of their past. Many other nations were murdered and are still murdered, Jews ain't anything special. Kurds didn't have the initiative from GB and money+arms from uncle Sam, they didn't make a buisiness out of it, Jews did. When few hundred Kurds are killed, you get a heading and the next day, nobody remembers, no actions taken. When Hamas shoots a rocket or two, there's a big halo, huge disgust how evil that organisation is and meanwhile, a much more deadly counter-attack by Israel. I got a bit off the track, but going back to the start of this paragraph - the point is, twink the Holocaust. It was long ago and shouldn't play a role in the current politics. It's history - write books, commemorate it, but don't use it. A tragedy for Jews get's much more attention than a tragedy for others. Look how delayed are the news from Africa. That's not because of bad communication, that's because nobody gives a shit, especially the US. You even have a free day on some Jewish holiday (or is it just your parliament?). Of course you care more about Jews, you've got quite a lot of them in your own country, they're more important than some blacks, even though being equally far away... And Africa has nothing to offer, it's all hunger and AIDS, dumping money in shit... On the other hand, the Jews have money, they're an integral part of our nation, the Israel is our dearest and closest friend!
Sad, but true, life ain't fair, politics are disgusting (local government is acceptable).
To conclude the conclusion - look through the recent history and you'll see that the blame is to be put on both sides, Israel's not innocent nor peaceful.

Uh, the ending turned out a bit drastic and out of scope, while the whole thing is rather chaotic, but, oh well...

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Oxygen
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Oxygen » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:13 pm

Jews were put over muslim ground, and kicked them out. When a muslim throws a rock or blows himself up with rudimentary explosives, because this is all they have, Jews go and blow up their taudis with longbow appaches. And it starts over.

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VZBushkiller20
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by VZBushkiller20 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:24 pm

Hmmmm...I'm sorry, can you please point to me exactly WHEN the Arabs (not Muslims, Arabs) held that little sliver of land? If I recall my history correctly, it was given to Jews from the British, who conquered it from the Turks in World War I, who in turn stole it from the Byzantines in the Crusades, who claimed it from the Romans when they split, who were invited into the land by the ancient Israelites. So yeah, check your history. Thank you.

And frankly, you know what? Even if Britain stole it from the Muslims, I don't really care. Why don't you go and offer back all of America to the Native Americans, because they did that there too. Why don't we just all go back to our country of origins and never leave the borders set up by the ancient past? Oh, I remember, because it is a stupid idea. Wars occur, land is bought, sold, destroyed, and captured. So Britain gave land that you don't feel was theirs to give. Go cry to Britain. Fact is, Israel fought a war for its land, just like every other country. The difference? It's being told it has to give the land back that it conquered in wars.

And bullshit that the governments have nothing to do with the terrorists. Bull. Shit. The entire reason the terrorist groups have support is because the governments are corrupt, uncaring, and do not take care of the people they govern. If the governments did their jobs properly, then the terrorist groups would have much less influence. And you know what, with the size Israel is, a post-soviet missile can do quite a bit of damage. What would you prefer, them to just sit there and take it. Part of being treated as a favorite of the United States is that they have to stop if the United States says stop.

Hmmm...you say Israel is wrong because it is being treated better and then say "Palestinians are to be treated separately." Great double standard there. You can't treat Israel differently, ohhhh but these poor Palestinians need to be coddled, need to have their own land, need to have their feelings of hatred and animosity fed.

Do you honestly belief we only grant money to Israel? And who here mentioned the holocaust? That is an old argument, and frankly, fairly outdated. Anybody who uses it doesn't have enough facts to back their arguments anyway. The fact is, the UN granted the land of Palestine to both Jews and Arabs. The Arabs attacked, and the Jews won. Who gives the land back after you conquer it?

And of course world politics aren't fair. If they were fair, then there would be no human aspect to it. Countries would be run by computers, and life would be a system of numbers. Israel has support, but so do the Arab nations around it. Innocent? Name one country that is that. Peaceful? If all the countries around you hate you, you'd probably be pretty aggressive as well.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:41 pm

A country that was sanctioned by the UN is the one at fault for coming into existence?

I'm sorry but Israel was granted a little piece of land when it was originally planned and the Jews gladly accepted it with open arms. Please note that this land was mostly of the Negev (The desert land) while the only highlight was that we got part of Jerusalem (If I recall correctly). So what do the Palestinians do at that point? They open war right on the spot after they have been given the majority of the land and Israel then declares independence knowing that the surrounding countries will attack but Israel comes out on top.

However America sat on its hands for the most part. In fact at the time President Truman was told NOT to do anything because Israel would be gone within a day's time. Many of the weapons stockpiled were done in secret when the land was held under the British mandate. However the key difference between most Jewish militant groups is that they don't hide behind citizens. Weapons were stockpiled in places like farmhouses so that those who didn't know of it wouldn't be in harm's way. We see the complete opposite used by militant groups run by Arabs within the Middle East when Israel is in the picture.

Also since when have the Palestinians been so nationalistic? It all started when the alliyot (The act of moving to Israel as a Jew) started to pick up and even more so after Israel was declared a free nation. Why? If they felt so strongly why weren't they rebelling before under British rule like India did. Where was the sweeping nationalism that was making the Otoman Empire falling? It sure wasn't within Israel.

As for the land won by Israel I don't see any issue with it because isn't that how borders change through wars? Why is it when a Jewish nation does it we wave our hands and stick our noses in the air in disgust?

The whole displacement problem is less Israel's fault and more that of the Arab nations around it. (Please refer to http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/israelmap.gif) All that is green is a Muslim nation (I wasn't sure how to word it but a country where Islam is the religion whether democratic or not) but all that is green won't accept anyone labeled as a Palestinian as an equal citizen and why? The truth is that by doing so it allowed and allows for tension to rise when it could have easily been stopped back in '48 and '69. By not accepting Palestinians it allows for both sides to get angrier at each other.

I could go deep into each war that Israel has been and if you want I can but I'll touch on Hamas and the rocket attacks. Hamas came into power because they played the PR (Public relations) game within the Aza Strip (Gaza Strip, for some reason english we throw on a G) during Fatach's rule which was corrupt. However Fatach wasn't attacking Israel constantly in the form of rockets and during the second intifada suicide bombers. The Hamas in power is no different to Hamas as a terrorist organization.
They are usually performed by desperate or fanatical rebelliants/terrorists/extremists, who usually have nothing to do with the government of the country from which they're shooting.
If all the money given to the Palestinians was used constructively they could have built up a nation within the land of equal to that of Israel. But time and time again who ever is in rule of the territories has always been corrupt wasting the money away on themselves and weapons.

I'm not saying that the Jews were treated with sympathy in '48. Israel would not have come abut as quickly if it hadn't been for the Holocaust but don't kid yourself into thinking that it wouldn't have come around. However to say that Israel is treated unfairly now is a load of bull. If Israel is truly the one to blame why is it that countries normally 100% against Israel actually criticizing Hamas?

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:22 pm

Yes, I forgot about Byzantine Empire. But it doesn't change the fact, that independent Israel last time existed around 2k years ago. And that was just to point out that the Jews were really, really, REALLY favoured. And to stress the fact, that the current Israel became mostly Jewish just 60 years ago. I also think you didn't get the irony. I'm not saying they should give it back. It was just an explanation, why muslims don't want them there. And they have the right to think so.

Bush, the thing about Palestinians being treated separately refered only to other terrorists, attacking from Lebanon or Syria. Hezbollah, for example, is a whole different cup of tea. They don't have any personal claims on that land, they just don't want Jews there.

Oh, and I forgot about one religion-related thing. Jerusalem is the second or third most important place for muslims. With the creation and development of Israel, they've lost access to it. That's significant too. ('Jews reigning in our holy land! Go get some dynamite, Ahmed!')

Yes, terrorists are often funded by governments, but more often they are not. The mentioned Hezbollah, for example, is a huge organisation with considerable support among the people of Lebanon, which is out of Lebanese control. Maybe it's not FARC, a country in a country, but it's similiar. Years back countries like Arab Emirates did support terrorist, but now they don't. It just doesn't calculate. 'Serious' muslim countries ceased the funding. But we still have countries like Iran and quite a lot of poor, muslim countries, where, due to poverty, demagogy is easy and extremists can be 'raised'.

To sum up, there are many reasons for muslims being negative against Jews, especially for Palestinians. Some are justified, some aren't.
If all the countries around you hate you, you'd probably be pretty aggressive as well.
So that's the neighbours fault only? Jews were all positive, never started a single conflict, did not provoke, they were open for negotiations, came up with peaceful initiatives and deals? No they didn't. They locked themselves up, every Arab is treated there like a terrorist, they plotted shit, they had stubborn politics. When a country criticises Israel, Jews instantly go defensive and flag that country as antisemite.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:26 pm

So that's the neighbours fault only? Jews were all positive, never started a single conflict, did not provoke, they were open for negotiations, came up with peaceful initiatives and deals? No they didn't. They locked themselves up, every Arab is treated there like a terrorist, they plotted shit, they had stubborn politics. When a country criticises Israel, Jews instantly go defensive and flag that country as antisemite.
Are we always perfect? Are people always perfect? No but to say that Jews are causing the majority of the problems is amazingly close minded.

EVERY war that Israel has been a part of Israel was attacked first. In the war of '48 obviously Israel was attacked first there. In the war of '67 (Sorry before I said '69 which was completely wrong) Egypt closed off the Straits of Tiran which is an act of war stated within the Guniva Convention (If I recall correctly). Nasser stated, "Under no circumstances can we permit the Israeli flag to pass through the Gulf of Aqaba." Because of this Israel commenced with a bunch of sorties to take out all of Egypt's air force and with that the 6 day war started. During this war Israel gained a large amount of land, including the East half of Jerusalem and the Egyptian Peninsula. The Egyptian Peninsula would later be given back to Egypt for peace however before that happened there was a great deal of skirmishes between the Egyptian forces and Israeli along the peninsula.
Oh, and I forgot about one religion-related thing. Jerusalem is the second or third most important place for muslims. With the creation and development of Israel, they've lost access to it. That's significant too. ('Jews reigning in our holy land! Go get some dynamite, Ahmed!')
Firstly when have Muslims lost access to their al aska mosque? If I recall correctly many people go up there every day as opposed to how the Jews had it before the war of '67 when we could hardly access the Kotel unless they went through Jordan which was hardly an option DESPITE the fact that it was part of the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan (For Jews to have access to the Kotel). As for the holiness of the site what about the fact that it is the third holy site for Islam and the top holy site for Judaism?

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Oxygen » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:24 pm

Lack of judgement from the uk's part? Even if they owned the land ( nobody uses colonies today, right? ), there were already people living there. First law of physics is that two different things can't occupy the same space at once. That applies to jews and muslims. Probably none was really interested in the cause of those muslims being kicked out of their own habitat, partly because, legally, the land was the uk's ( and they could thus, do anything with it ) and socially, everyone was qq'ing over the holocaust. Plus, let's not deny it, jews got the big money.

What do you do when you're left with nothing -

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Deschain » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:58 pm

Oxygen wrote:What do you do when you're left with nothing -
Blow up yourself?
Those who seek war deserve for the war to find them.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:41 am

You forgot about 1956. And I'm not saying Jerusalem is more important for muslims than it is for Jews. I'm just stating a fact, it is important for them. And don't get me wrong, I don't think it's all Jews fault. It's just the lack of muslim perspective here that I'm trying to fill up ;) (btw, I'm roman catholic (like 97% of people here))

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